Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[p--and--t]

Why did they take the plane to red-line speed without de-throttling?

 

[jb747]

Why did they start cleaning up when left side stick shaker was active?

You could probably argue that one both ways. We know now that keeping the flaps extended would have stopped the MCAS from engaging, but they were not to know at that point that they were about to run into that problem.

I expect they were aware that the shaker was spurious (only one) and all of their other numbers would have been saying otherwise. Cleaning it up, keeps things as standard as possible, and makes it less likely that items will be missed. Which leads us to...

Why did they take the plane to red-line speed without de-throttling?

Mistake. Both Boeing and Airbus, for good reasons, won’t reduce the power from the take off setting, until there is some pilot activity to force it. Selection of climb thrust (or any other mode) will bring the autothrust out of ‘hold’ mode, which is what engages during the take off roll. But, if you get a bit busy sorting something out, it’s very easy to forget it, until the speed starts running away.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Why did they take the plane to red-line speed without de-throttling?

I don't think they took it to red line. Rather MCAS forced the aircraft into a massive nose down position. Now with big underslung engines, if you reduce the thrust, the aircraft will want to pitch down further. Seems kind of counter intuitive right? You want the airspeed to come off and slow down, but if you have no stabiliser trim control to help you and you're already at a very aft control column position, then there won't be anymore authority left to counteract the nose down thrust line pitch.

The report doesn't say (unless I missed it) but, if there were other erroneous readings to help identify a failed AoA side, it could have helped in their troubleshooting. What I would expect to see would be AOA DISAGREE, ALT DISAGREE, IAS DISAGREE, FEEL DIFF PRESS, the PLI (pitch limit indicatior bars) below the pitch box on the failed side, the black and red minimum speed bar above the IAS on the failed side, the inability to engage the autopilot or automatic disengagement of the autopilot (this happened), and continuous or intermittent stick shaker on the failed side (this also happened).

 

[AviatorInsight]

expect they were aware that the shaker was spurious (only one) and all of their other numbers would have been saying otherwise. Cleaning it up, keeps things as standard as possible, and makes it less likely that items will be missed.

I expect MAX pilots will now be flying around with flap out all the time to prevent MCAS from activating...

 

[Quickstatus]

I expect MAX pilots will now be flying around with flap out all the time to prevent MCAS from activating...

Or flaps out unless all indicators are normal.

 

[NM]

Now if Tom Cruise was piloting (in Top Gun mode), he would have rolled inverted and used the run-away trim to gain some altitude (and some negative G), to give more room to troubleshoot and remedy the situation . Which of course would eventually have resulted in an inverted stall, but would make for a good movie script. @AviatorInsight, I do not suggest this as an alternate approach to flying your aircraft . But if you are ever left with some spare time in the sim ...

 

[ozfflyer]

Fiji Airways have leased a 738 from Miami Air short term, until 737 max 8s sorted.

Fiji Airways leases Boeing 737 800 Aircraft for temporary operations ·

They are for example still showing 3 x A330s a week BNE/NAN/BNE until 19 April.
(fyi-normally BNE gets no Fiji Airways A330s, except occasionally 1 or 2 over very busy Xmas holiday period)

This week, school holidays they have 9 flights BNE/NAN (3 X B737s & 4 x A330) In non-peak time, they usually have only 1 x B737 every day.

 

[jb747]

Now if Tom Cruise was piloting (in Top Gun mode), he would have rolled inverted and used the run-away trim to gain some altitude (and some negative G), to give more room to troubleshoot and remedy the situation . Which of course would eventually have resulted in an inverted stall, but would make for a good movie script. @AviatorInsight, I do not suggest this as an alternate approach to flying your aircraft . But if you are ever left with some spare time in the sim ...

Tom Cruise would have then found himself with a double engine failure from fuel starvation. Inverted fuel tanks aren't normal airliner fitment.

 

[Quickstatus]

Now if Tom Cruise was piloting (in Top Gun mode), he would have rolled inverted and used the run-away trim to gain some altitude (and some negative G), to give more room to troubleshoot and remedy the situation . Which of course would eventually have resulted in an inverted stall, but would make for a good movie script. @AviatorInsight, I do not suggest this as an alternate approach to flying your aircraft . But if you are ever left with some spare time in the sim ...

Possibly Not enough altitude to get that into place

 

[AviatorInsight]

Now if Tom Cruise was piloting (in Top Gun mode), he would have rolled inverted and used the run-away trim to gain some altitude (and some negative G), to give more room to troubleshoot and remedy the situation . Which of course would eventually have resulted in an inverted stall, but would make for a good movie script. @AviatorInsight, I do not suggest this as an alternate approach to flying your aircraft . But if you are ever left with some spare time in the sim ...

Challenge accepted...

 

[RooFlyer]

Challenge accepted...

We'll just call you Tex.

 

[Happy Trails]

It worked for Denzel in Flight:

And that was with a skinful.

 

[serfty]

USA Airlines remove MAX8 from their schedules until August.

American Airlines extends Boeing 737 Max flight cancellations

The airline is grounding its fleet until 19 August while Boeing develops a software upgrade.

www.bbc.com

Flying Southwest Airlines this summer? You might now be affected by Max 8 grounding

The airline will cancel 160 daily flights through Aug. 5, affecting summer travel. Travelers will be notified in advance and rebooked or offered a refund.

www.usatoday.com

 

[JohnM]

Well, it looks like AA expects their MAX 8s to be back in the air by 15 July. I’ve just been notified of a flight change CUN-MIA on that date from a B737-800 to a B737-800 MAX 8.

USA Airlines remove MAX8 from their schedules until August.

American Airlines extends Boeing 737 Max flight cancellations

The airline is grounding its fleet until 19 August while Boeing develops a software upgrade.

www.bbc.com

Flying Southwest Airlines this summer? You might now be affected by Max 8 grounding

The airline will cancel 160 daily flights through Aug. 5, affecting summer travel. Travelers will be notified in advance and rebooked or offered a refund.

www.usatoday.com

It would be not be an exaggeration to say that I am happy about that!

 

[ozfflyer]

& if the software fix is sorted sooner, max 8s could be flying much sooner. It must be costing Boeing billions ?

 

[oz_mark]

& if the software fix is sorted sooner, max 8s could be flying much sooner. It must be costing Boeing billions ?

I wouldn't read too much into any dates that are put into schedules at the moment. There's the software fix, theirs updated training requirements, then there is the international review.

I'd say at least August, but maybe later. There is no officlal timeline though - when it's ready....

 

[codash1099]

If I was flying a fighter jet, where performance required a basically unstable aircraft with software that overcomes the instability, I might be able to accept that. In a passenger jet, I'm not sure I can accept it. However, I'm equally not sure that I would always have the choice.

(I'm not a great lover of the 737 at the best of times. Great when I first flew on it in 1969, not so much in 2019)

 

[NM]

If I was flying a fighter jet, where performance required a basically unstable aircraft with software that overcomes the instability, I might be able to accept that. In a passenger jet, I'm not sure I can accept it. However, I'm equally not sure that I would always have the choice.

And of course in a fighter jet you can likely rely on Mr Martin and his partner Mr Baker as a way out of trouble if things go wrong with the software. That option does not exist for @AviatorInsight and his colleagues and the precious cargo they transport. This event really does show that a failure to understand all possible failure modes and their outcomes is a dangerous situation.

 

[defurax]

And of course in a fighter jet you can likely rely on Mr Martin and his partner Mr Baker as a way out of trouble if things go wrong with the software. That option does not exist for @AviatorInsight and his colleagues and the precious cargo they transport. This event really does show that a failure to understand all possible failure modes and their outcomes is a dangerous situation.

I had to look that one up! Martin-Baker
I like the "Ejection tie club"

 

[woodborer]

If I was flying a fighter jet, where performance required a basically unstable aircraft with software that overcomes the instability, I might be able to accept that. In a passenger jet, I'm not sure I can accept it. However, I'm equally not sure that I would always have the choice.

You would mostly never know - even the 737 MAX pilots didn't know about MCAS.
Anyway, it didn't start off as an instability issue, it was about making the MAX feel like an NG.