Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[flyer89]

This is the more appropriate thread for it. Thanks Serfty

 

[esseeeayeenn]

So we’re back to grandfathering.

Is the B737 MAX so fatally flawed it should not be allowed back into service?
Or at least, not without (1) MCAS being removed and (2) a requirement for pilots to be recertified for how the plane actually flies?

 

[oz_mark]

I think there is blame to be apportioned right through from design, certification, maintenance, pilot training, pilots, the works.

And Boeing needs to have a damn hard look at itself

 

[jb747]

Flight parameters said to be below 20,000 feet with 1st stage flap deployed to disarm the MCAS system.

20,000’ is the max altitude that you’re allowed with any flap extension.

 

[oz_mark]

Seems as though Indonesia is going to spray the blame around

Indonesian investigators have found that design and oversight lapses played a key role in the October 2018 crash of Boeing Co's 737 MAX jet that killed all 189 people aboard.

The draft conclusions, expected to be the first formal government-finding of flaws in the design and US regulatory approval, also identify a string of pilot errors and maintenance mistakes as causal factors of the Lion Air crash, the Wall Street Journal reported on Sunday.

Indonesia finds design flaw in 737 crash

Indonesian investigators have found that design and oversight lapses played a key role in the October 2018 crash of Boeing Co's 737 MAX jet that killed all 189 people aboard.

www.news.com.au

 

[Mr Pumblechook]

You could guess where the article was heading before halfway.

Yes, the way the pilots reacted and ground crew handled thing contributed to the "holes lining up in the swiss cheese", but one of the first couple of holes was caused by MCAS.

Indeed, without MCAS, this thread would not exist.

Yes as a student of human performance and safety I didn't find much in that article to like. As Sir Humphrey said (or was it Bernard?), "It's very well... typed"

 

[flydoc]

I think there is blame to be apportioned right through from design, certification, maintenance, pilot training, pilots, the works.

And Boeing needs to have a damn hard look at itself

The NTSB would appear to generally agree. From the report released by the agency Thursday (US time):

"We saw in these two accidents that the crews did not react in the ways Boeing and the FAA assumed they would," NTSB chairman Robert Sumwalt said.
"Those assumptions were used in the design of the airplane and we have found a gap between the assumptions used to certify the MAX and the real-world experiences of these crews, where pilots were faced with multiple alarms and alerts at the same time."
The report comes two days after a critical assessment of the FAA by the US Office of Special Counsel, which concluded that 16 of 22 FAA safety inspectors lacked proper training to assess pilot training on the Boeing 737 MAX and other planes and that the FAA misrepresented the inspectors’ training to Congress.

Boeing, Federal Aviation Administration misjudged pilot response to 737 MAX trouble

Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration misjudged how pilots would respond to multiple alerts and alarms as they encountered trouble when flying the 737 MAX, according to a government report.

www.abc.net.au

 

[ksthommo]

Silk Air have clearance to fly their six 737 Max 8 to Alice Springs for storage.
First flight tomorrow 30/09?

Australia clears SilkAir to fly globally grounded Boeing 737 Max to Alice Springs for storage

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And now ‘pickle fork’ cracking on current model 737NGs.

The pickle forks help hold the wings and fuselage together and should last 90,000 cycles. Cracking is being found early into airframe life cycles.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Silk Air have clearance to fly their six 737 Max 8 to Alice Springs for storage.
First flight tomorrow 30/09?

Australia clears SilkAir to fly globally grounded Boeing 737 Max to Alice Springs for storage

Worth noting this implies SilkAir doesn't expect these aircraft to be cleared to fly anytime soon.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

And now ‘pickle fork’ cracking on current model 737NGs.

The pickle forks help hold the wings and fuselage together and should last 90,000 cycles. Cracking is being found early into airframe life cycles.

I remember there was a meme about a pilots' saying "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going".
We are getting to the stage where it should be replaced with "If it's not from Toulouse, you're all going to lose.".

 

[stm1sydney]

More reading:

Crash Course

How Boeing's managerial revolution created the 737 MAX disaster

newrepublic.com

 

[oz_mark]

Worth noting this implies SilkAir doesn't expect these aircraft to be cleared to fly anytime soon.

First one arrived in Alice Springs yesterday

Grounded Boeing planes moved to Alice Springs 'plane graveyard'

After two recent crashes involving mass casualties

www.9news.com.au

 

[oz_mark]

American have now pulled the Max from its schedules until Jan 16

American Airlines cuts Boeing 737 Max from schedules until Jan. 16 as grounding continues

American Airlines doesn't expect the Boeing 737 Max to return to service until Jan. 16, 2020, as the grounding of Boeing's bestseller drags on.

www.cnbc.com

 

[AviatorInsight]

And now ‘pickle fork’ cracking on current model 737NGs.

The pickle forks help hold the wings and fuselage together and should last 90,000 cycles. Cracking is being found early into airframe life cycles.

The AD requires airframes with 30,000 flight cycles or greater to be inspected within 7 days and airframes with greater than 22,600 cycles to be inspected within the next 1000 flight cycles.

To hopefully put some minds at ease, closer to home, VOK, VON, VOL and VOM all have greater than 30,000 flight cycles. These aircraft were inspected last weekend and no cracks found. The next 3 highest aircraft VOT, VOS and VUA were also inspected with no cracks found. The remainder of the fleet will be inspected in the next few weeks. At this point world wide data shows the latest line number where cracking has been found is 998. Our earliest line number (VOK) is 1359.

Boeing have not yet determined the cause of the cracking...

 

[JohnM]

The latest piece from Byron Bailey in today’s Oz.

Pilots: any comments?

 

[woodborer]

If it could be just easily dismissed as Pilot Error it wouldn't have been grounded for 8 months and counting

 

[suze2000]

Is this guy planning a future career as a Boeing salesman?

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The latest piece from Byron Bailey in today’s Oz.

Pilots: any comments?

View attachment 192130
View attachment 192129

This was obviously timed to preempt the release of this report which places the blame squarely on Boeing and the Review of 737 Max Certification Finds Fault With Boeing and F.A.A.

 

[straitman]

If it could be just easily dismissed as Pilot Error it wouldn't have been grounded for 8 months and counting

Is this guy planning a future career as a Boeing salesman?

I am not sure what you are reading here as it certainly doesn't come across to me that he is saying anything about 'pilot error.' To me he clearly says that the pilots were inadequately trained.

The reference to the trim circuit breaker can easily be explained as in the early days the RAAF Macchi trainer was prone to pitch trim runaways that at low speed created severe pitch control issues. The RAAF took the easy out and disconnected one of the two pitch trims.

It is fairly