General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Lynda2475]

Victoria seems to agree, dated February 2021

Not quite, that says "Your second dose should be scheduled between 3 - 6 weeks (21 to 42 days) after you receive your first dose".

It then says the "The recommended maximum time between the first and second doses is 12 weeks (84 days). If you are unable to receive your second dose within 12 weeks of your first dose you should speak to your doctor or the immunisation provider."

That is not encouraging people to wait til after 7 weeks. Nor saying that 12 weeks is preferred, rather that it is the maximum you can wait.

 

[Flying mermaid]

If you ask any of the vaxxers in the UK they'd say 7 weeks was too early, regardless of Pfizer or AZ they recommend a minimum of 8 weeks between each jab for better efficacy rates. 12 is still preferred, although in the last 2 weeks they have brought lots forward closer to the 8 week mark.

She was vaccinated at the same time as colleagues in the UK were getting their second jab - this was some months ago so advice might have changed since then. It’s all very confusing as every country is doing something different. Makes me think “every schedule is subtly different”.

 

[Flashback]

Most of the reports about stretching the dosage window in UK was to maximize how many could get a first shot and partial immunity. The stated intention was to maximise benefit with limited supplies and to minimise hospital admissions and deaths; not to improve the performance of the vaccine.

I will get my second Pfizer does 21 days after the first, it is in Australia's bets interest that people are fully vaccinated asap. The sweet spot according to ATAGI is 21-42 days. Here 12 weeks is only recommended for AZ.



Has there been more deaths and hospitalizations in people fully vaccinated with Pfizer in USA after 3 weeks vs those in fully vaccinated with Pfizer in UK who waited 12 weeks? Because if your talking deaths' and hospitalization for unvaccinated people then that has no bearing on the recommended gap between doses.

UK has NHS meaning most people can access health care. In USA if you don't have insurance you often don't get treated.

While that may have originally been the gamble taken, from a medical point of view that turned out to be a great call. Given the short trial periods there was no way to know other than real world data. The UK rolled the dice....... and won.

On the other question, see below from @drron.

And have had a lot higher proportion of vaccinated people hospitalised and dying.
View attachment 249077

Real world figures from the UK may indeed be real.

 

[Lynda2475]

And have had a lot higher proportion of vaccinated people hospitalised and dying.

No breakdown of those 160 deaths between the 3 vaccines in use, however 160 deaths from a pool of 101 Million fully vacinated people doesnt seem that high to me. It is certainly a lot lower than the incidence of AZ clotting cases.

The below article also form April seems to suggest that 113 people have died in the UK after being fully vacicnated, given the much lower population i dont think statistically the % of vaccinated people dying in the US is much higher than UK.

Figures on Covid deaths post-jab show vaccine’s success, scientists say

Small number have died after being vaccinated, mostly having caught virus before dose could take effect

www.theguardian.com

 

[moa999]

breakdown of those 160 deaths between the 3 vaccines in use, however 160 deaths from a pool of 101 Million fully vacinated people doesnt seem that high to me.

It's also an interesting comparison to Aus.

Even if everyone is fully vaccinated, are we willing to accept day 40 Covid deaths .. because that's the likely result of opening up ..

I personally hope so (purely because these individuals are likely to otherwise to die of the flu or something else)

 

[Lynda2475]

I personally hope so (purely because these individuals are likely to otherwise to die of the flu or something else)

Me too, vaccines wont stop all cases and all deaths. Covid 0 is not realistics with or without closed borders.

 

[drron]

No breakdown of those 160 deaths between the 3 vaccines in use, however 160 deaths from a pool of 101 Million fully vacinated people doesnt seem that high to me. It is certainly a lot lower than the incidence of AZ clotting cases.

The below article also form April seems to suggest that 113 people have died in the UK after being fully vacicnated, given the much lower population i dont think statistically the % of vaccinated people dying in the US is much higher than UK.

Figures on Covid deaths post-jab show vaccine’s success, scientists say

Small number have died after being vaccinated, mostly having caught virus before dose could take effect

www.theguardian.com

You must learn to compare apples to apples and not oranges.
The USA figures are for completely vaccinated people.At least 7 days after their second dose or 1 dose of Jansen.The great majority have been vaccinated with the mRNA vaccines.The Jansen vaccine was only being given 11 weeks after the first Pfizer dose.Early uptake was then affected by a stuff up in delivery and then at least a week out of action due to the clots issue.Note that the figures I quoted were only to April 30th as well.

Now if you read the article you quote the figures are for deaths at any time after the first dose.It is well known that the figures are much better when fully vaccinated.
And to quote your link.
"More than 52,000 people were admitted to hospital with Covid in England, Scotland and Wales between 8 December and 10 March. Of those, 3,842 had been vaccinated. The researchers had information on the date of the first dose of vaccine for 3,598 of them and information on the date of a second dose for 140."

So the great majority of hospital admissions and deaths occurred after the first dose and not when fully vaccinated as the US figures.

And to make things worse your link is not from official sources.This article is based on official sources.
"There were 526 people admitted with Covid three or more weeks after their first jab, out of a total of 52,000 inpatients included in the study.
Those 526, who were expected to have vaccine protection, made up 29 per cent of all people admitted at any time after the first jab. The other 71 per cent fell ill too soon after their vaccine to have any real immunity."

Number of people hospitalised with Covid after first vaccine is 'tiny'

A report presented to SAGE showed that seven per cent of people admitted to hospital in the UK's second wave had had a jab but 79% of them caught the virus before the vaccine kicked in.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Must...Fly!]

Not quite, that says "Your second dose should be scheduled between 3 - 6 weeks (21 to 42 days) after you receive your first dose".

It then says the "The recommended maximum time between the first and second doses is 12 weeks (84 days). If you are unable to receive your second dose within 12 weeks of your first dose you should speak to your doctor or the immunisation provider."

That is not encouraging people to wait til after 7 weeks. Nor saying that 12 weeks is preferred, rather that it is the maximum you can wait.

That is just rewording the ATAGI guidance

 

[Lynda2475]

I still fail to see why you consider 160 / 110 000 000 a "large" number? It is miniscule, and no context as to age, comorbodities of that 160. A number that small does not prove that a 21 day gap between Pfizer doses is significantly less effective than a longer gap especially when equivalent data for the UK is not as readily available.

 

[burmans]

Like l said previously (and was brushed down on AFF) - the vaccination hubs should be going 24/7 - 365 - until demand subsides.

I'm down in Melbourne for work atm and coincidentally on nightshift. Me and a few work colleagues would go at 2am for the jab, but out of luck....

ROLL IT OUT

On previous experience demand will subside within a couple of weeks. Last week there were plenty of slots available, they shouldn’t just employ a whole bunch of people based on the fact that some didn’t bother going when they should have last week!

 

[Oneworldplus2]

40 year olds in VIC only got the ok this week

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Called the COVID line yesterday to make an appointment

62 minute wait to speak to someone

LOL

 

[Must...Fly!]

Called the COVID line yesterday to make an appointment

62 minute wait to speak to someone

LOL

Well, that's about 4 hours better than if you want to speak to someone at Qantas....

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Lol

 

[Flying mermaid]

Called the COVID line yesterday to make an appointment

62 minute wait to speak to someone

LOL

Apparently they received 77,000 calls in 15 minutes on Thursday and have now brought on 630 extra staff…

 

[Lynda2475]

Apparently they received 77,000 calls in 15 minutes on Thursday and have now brought on 630 extra staff

Although would have been significantly cheaper and easier to have an online booking system ready to go. People are going to be booking in for jabs for years with boosters etc. And whilst they might have brought forward an age group its not like they didnt know that the millions of Victorians were going to need to make appointments.

Rather than just opening up a new group, had they used wait list model, the algorithm would only send out invites when there were slots available reducing load on the appointment system.

Qantas could also have saved themselves call centre costs by fixing the issues with their website and adding ability to self serve more complex changes. With so few flights last year would have been perfect time to invest in fixing their online channel rather than tinkering with the IVR.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Although would have been significantly cheaper and easier to have an online booking system raedy to go.

Victorian jab rollout at breaking point amid tech crunch

The Victorian government was caught out by the dramatic surge in demand for vaccines and left unable to deploy its high-tech vaccination management system.

www.theage.com.au

Senior government sources conceded that bedding down the platform had not been given priority owing to the shortage of vaccines and tepid demand before this week’s outbreak in Melbourne’s northern suburbs, which forced the state into its fourth lockdown.

Gold standard (TM)

 

[Flying mermaid]

Victorian jab rollout at breaking point amid tech crunch

The Victorian government was caught out by the dramatic surge in demand for vaccines and left unable to deploy its high-tech vaccination management system.

www.theage.com.au

Gold standard (TM)

ACT brought forward their online booking system in time for the 3 May rollout for over 50s. Was fairly chaotic in the early days and didn’t work properly and people had to phone anyway. Seems to be working ok now - at least it’s taken the load off phone bookings.

 

[drron]

I still fail to see why you consider 160 / 110 000 000 a "large" number? It is miniscule, and no context as to age, comorbodities of that 160. A number that small does not prove that a 21 day gap between Pfizer doses is significantly less effective than a longer gap especially when equivalent data for the UK is not as readily available.

Well if you notice the last link I supplied there was no reporting of deaths because there were none up to mid April.I think there have been a couple since.And those figures were until mid April when 20 million had been fully vaccinated.If the figures were the same as the USA there would have been 32 deaths.The only difference in vaccinations were the UK used AZ for about a third of people and the US Jansen for a small number.The difference was the timing of doses.

 

[Lynda2475]

Well the other difference is Moderna. Its not a contolled study, its an observation with many variables between US and UK in mix of vaccines usage and availability of free healthcare.

You have not explained why such a miniscule death rate (unconfirmed but likely to be in those with other heath issues) should be of concern or change the local Pfizer regime? You are not concerned about AZ at all but the incidence of blood clots 1/200k is much more common than vaccinated covid deaths 160/101m.