General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Flying mermaid]

Well the other difference is Moderna. Its not a contolled study, its an observation with many variables between US and UK in mix of vaccines usage and availability of free healthcare.

You have not explained why such a miniscule death rate (unconfirmed but likely to be in those with other heath issues) should be of concern or change the local Pfizer regime? You are not concerned about AZ at all but the incidence of blood clots 1/200k is much more common than vaccinated covid deaths 160/101m.

Please compare eggs with eggs. I.e deaths with deaths. So 160 deaths from 101 vaccinations equates to roughly 5 deaths from 3 million. That compares to 1 death from 3 million AZ vaccinations in Australia. How can 5 deaths from 3 million be minuscule, but 1 death from 3 million over the top scary?

 

[drron]

I'd rather have the clots than die.
Moderna is a mRNA vaccine so similar to Pfizer.

But if you read my post carefully you would see I was discussing the interval between doses not a difference between vaccines.

 

[Lynda2475]

Id rather not have a blood clot at all, 1/200k is a high rate in healthy individuals. Whilst we can treat them, it relies on a person self diagnosing the symptoms and seeking medical advice. The AZ deaths may be 1/3million in Australia (much higher overseas) but the real risk for under 50s is higher in Australia as that death was in an under 50 and overwhelming majorty of AZ doses have been given to over 50s.

To date no one in my gender/age cohort has died from Covid in whole of Australia, no one under 50 has died from Covid in NSW (actually Victoria is only state with 2 deaths under 50), and so far no fully vaccinated person of any age has died from Covid in Australia.

If a fully vaccinated person did get Covid here in Australia they would be treated in a hospital and barring any comorbidities have a good chance of recovery. In the USA if you dont have insurance you may not be admitted so may not get treatment at all, medical bankrupcy is a real consideration in US that doesnt happen in UK because of NHS or Australia because of medicare safety nets.

The fact of the matter is ATAGI is not recommending 12 week gaps for Pfizer doses to increase effectivness. The recommendation remains 3-6 weeks preferred with 12 weeks being absolute longest period it is acceptable to wait. If you go longer than 12 weeks without the second dose you need a medical consult before you can get second dose to determine if you need ot start over.

Go ahead an wait longer than is advised if you like, but I will be getting my seond dose exactly 21 days after the first and will have the benefit of being fully vacicnated within 3 weeks, not 3 months.

 

[jase05]

but I will be getting my seond dose exactly 21 days after the first and will have the benefit of being fully vacicnated within 3 weeks, not 3 months.

Doesn’t that depend on availability though?
I was led to believe that the Feds are eating into the reserve that were set aside for second doses and that the priority now is ensuring everyone gets a first dose.

 

[Flashback]

Doesn’t that depend on availability though?
I was led to believe that the Feds are eating into the reserve that were set aside for second doses and that the priority now is ensuring everyone gets a first dose.

Now where have I heard of that methodology being followed before...

 

[Lynda2475]

Doesn’t that depend on availability though?
I was led to believe that the Feds are eating into the reserve that were set aside for second doses and that the priority now is ensuring everyone gets a first dose.

Well in NSW they only release appointments based on dosage availablity and I have bookings for both my doses confirmed. Tehre are no walk ups for Pfizer in NSW, bookings are essential.

What you have been lead to believe is not policy, it may be that Vic have decided to go against policy but its not national policy at all.

 

[dajop]

You are not concerned about AZ at all but the incidence of blood clots 1/200k is much more common than vaccinated covid deaths 160/101m.

Although it’s not my argument, I am curious as to why you compare incidence of blood clots to vaccinated Covid deaths? Should it not be incident of deaths due to blood clots vs vaccinated Covid deaths. In Australia IIRC only 1 death so far, early on, due to AZ related clots.

 

[jase05]

What you have been lead to believe is not policy, it may be that Vic have decided to go against policy but its not national policy at all.

I was told that that the 130k extra Pfizer doses the Feds have given the Vics has come from the reserves being held back for second doses so you would think some might miss their second dose or at least be delayed.

 

[Lynda2475]

I am curious as to why you compare incidence of blood clots to vaccinated Covid deaths

Thats not what I was doing, several pages back Dr Ron and Flying Mermaid were tryng to imply that 160/101,000,000 was a "high rate" warranting concern. So my question which has never been answered is why is 160/110M a high rate but 1/200k for serious AZ side effects not considered high enough to worry about?

Further the information on the US post Covid vaccine deaths provided only total number, nothing about how long after vaccination the person died, which vacine they had had (and whetehr they had doses at the recommended intervals), the age or health of the people who died (did they have co-morbidities), whether they were treated in hospital etc.

Yet on the basis of this number, we arebeing asked to accept that all the other countires using Pfizer globablly have made the wrong decision in recommending 3 weeks between doses and that UK's decision to stretch beyond 7 weeks (which was done solely because of a goal to get first doses out) means everyone else is doing the wrong thing.

 

[Lynda2475]

I was told that that the 130k extra Pfizer doses the Feds have given the Vics has come from the reserves being held back for second doses so you would think some might miss their second dose or at least be delayed.

Except that isnt correct, the annoucenment was that "In addition to those numbers, as the Minister announced yesterday, we have an extra 130,000 doses of AstraZeneca going to Victorian State hubs."

Chief Medical Officer, Professor Paul Kelly and Commodore Eric Young's press conference on 27 May 2021

Read the transcript of Chief Medical Officer, Professor Paul Kelly and Commodore Eric Young's press conference on 27 May 2021 about coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.health.gov.au

So no impact to Pfizer allocation to states at this time, as no extra Pfizer doses are being sent. Victoria is just making their existing stocks available more widely which is why as in other states appointments are necessary for Pfizer to ensure stocks isnt over allocated.

You will recall a few weeks ago the Feds said that they hold back second doses, meaning the states do not have to, but it was apparent some states were also holding back 2nd doses, Queensland in particlauar was called out, but looked like other states were doing the same. So if this behaviour has ceased, there wil be some more supply.

 

[jase05]

Except that isnt correct, the annoucenment was that "In addition to those numbers, as the Minister announced yesterday, we have an extra 130,000 doses of AstraZeneca going to Victorian State hubs."

Chief Medical Officer, Professor Paul Kelly and Commodore Eric Young's press conference on 27 May 2021

Read the transcript of Chief Medical Officer, Professor Paul Kelly and Commodore Eric Young's press conference on 27 May 2021 about coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.health.gov.au

So no impact to Pfizer allocation to states at this time, as no extra Pfizer doses are being sent. Victoria is just making their existing stocks available more widely which is why as in other states appointments are necessary for Pfizer to ensure stocks isnt over allocated.

You will recall a few weeks ago the Feds said that they hold back second doses, meaning the states do not have to, but it was apparent some states were also holding back 2nd doses, Queensland in particlauar was called out, but looked like other states were doing the same. So if this behaviour has ceased, there wil be some more supply.

Thank you, I clearly misheard
By time the rest get their first Pfizer you might need your third or fourth shot.
All because too many scared people are too cowardly to take the AZ

 

[drron]

Thats not what I was doing, several pages back Dr Ron and Flying Mermaid were tryng to imply that 160/101,000,000 was a "high rate" warranting concern. So my question which has never been answered is why is 160/110M a high rate but 1/200k for serious AZ side effects not considered high enough to worry about?

Further the information on the US post Covid vaccine deaths provided only total number, nothing about how long after vaccination the person died, which vacine they had had (and whetehr they had doses at the recommended intervals), the age or health of the people who died (did they have co-morbidities), whether they were treated in hospital etc.

Yet on the basis of this number, we arebeing asked to accept that all the other countires using Pfizer globablly have made the wrong decision in recommending 3 weeks between doses and that UK's decision to stretch beyond 7 weeks (which was done solely because of a goal to get first doses out) means everyone else is doing the wrong thing.

And in 2 posts already I have posted that 160 deaths in 110 million vaccinated people in the USA is a high rate compared to 0 deaths in 20 million vaccinated people in the UK where the difference is the time between doses - 3 weeks v 8-12 weeks.

And you obviously think the AZ is really dangerous when in Australia the death rate from AZ clots is 1 in 2 million or a third of the rate of those vaccination deaths in the US.

Then there is a possible problem developing with the Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis.It is virtually limited to males under 30 where even in the US and UK they are not in large numbers of those vaccinated.Is occurring in healthy individuals and although usually not fatal there have been 2 deaths in Israel after the Pfizer vaccine of healthy young adults.

"In most cases, the patients were discharged from the hospital in good conditions. However, two people – a 22-year-old woman and a 35-year-old man – died. According to the report, they did not have any preexisting condition, but further investigation was needed to confirm the diagnosis.

The physicians emphasized that a further study is needed also to confirm a link between the vaccine and the heart problems, but according to Channel 12 they described it as “likely” in the report."

COVID-19: Israel finds possible link between vaccine, myocarditis cases

The findings have been transmitted to the Health Ministry’s Director-General Chezy Levy, as well as to the US Food and Drug Administration and Pfizer.

www.jpost.com

So that is a death rate of 1 in 2.5 million but in healthy young people.The AZ death in Australia was a women in her 40s but with comorbidities.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

And in 2 posts already I have posted that 160 deaths in 110 million vaccinated people in the USA is a high rate compared to 0 deaths in 20 million vaccinated people in the UK where the difference is the time between doses - 3 weeks v 8-12 weeks.

And you obviously think the AZ is really dangerous when in Australia the death rate from AZ clots is 1 in 2 million or a third of the rate of those vaccination deaths in the US.

Then there is a possible problem developing with the Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis.It is virtually limited to males under 30 where even in the US and UK they are not in large numbers of those vaccinated.Is occurring in healthy individuals and although usually not fatal there have been 2 deaths in Israel after the Pfizer vaccine of healthy young adults.

"In most cases, the patients were discharged from the hospital in good conditions. However, two people – a 22-year-old woman and a 35-year-old man – died. According to the report, they did not have any preexisting condition, but further investigation was needed to confirm the diagnosis.

The physicians emphasized that a further study is needed also to confirm a link between the vaccine and the heart problems, but according to Channel 12 they described it as “likely” in the report."

COVID-19: Israel finds possible link between vaccine, myocarditis cases

The findings have been transmitted to the Health Ministry’s Director-General Chezy Levy, as well as to the US Food and Drug Administration and Pfizer.

www.jpost.com

So that is a death rate of 1 in 2.5 million but in healthy young people.The AZ death in Australia was a women in her 40s but with comorbidities.

You say there has been 160 deaths from the 110m (guessing mRNAjabs, Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson). Has there been any outline of cause(s)?

 

[dajop]

Thats not what I was doing, several pages back Dr Ron and Flying Mermaid were tryng to imply that 160/101,000,000 was a "high rate" warranting concern. So my question which has never been answered is why is 160/110M a high rate but 1/200k for serious AZ side effects not considered high enough to worry about?

But still effectively this is like comparing road fatalities of people driving Fords to serious injuries due road accidents from people driving Toyota’s.

 

[drron]

You say there has been 160 deaths from the 110m (guessing mRNAjabs, Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson). Has there been any outline of cause(s)?

Yes they died in hospital with Covid.

 

[Lynda2475]

And in 2 posts already I have posted that 160 deaths in 110 million vaccinated people in the USA is a high rate compared to 0 deaths in 20 million vaccinated people in the UK where the difference is the time between doses - 3 weeks v 8-12 weeks.

In comaprison maybe, but high over all no. And without data on those 160 individuals verifying that they were healthy individuals not something to worry about.

Partially and fully vaccinated people in the UK have contracted Covid, the fact that none have died (but I cant find this stated anywhere for sure) isnt defintive proof it was because they waited 8-12 weeks for a second dose, it could equally be due to more ready acces to health care via the NHS. We dont know what vaccine the people who got covid had, nor what their preexisting conditions were. Yoru conclusons at this time are tenuous as best.

If the evidence out of the UK re longer intervals for Pfizer doses (outside the elderly cohort who were the focus of a study and generally have weaker immune systems so poorer response to vacicnnation) is so strong we would be seeing other countries recommending delaying second shot, but this isnt happening anywhere that I can see.

So as previously stated I will be proceeding in accordance with ATAGI, the quicker one is fully vaccinated the better.

And you obviously think the AZ is really dangerous when in Australia the death rate from AZ clots is 1 in 2 million or a third of the rate of those vaccination deaths in the US.

I think the clot rate for AZ is high at 1/200k and its a risk Id rather not take even though its treatable.

Experts across the world have agreed that the risk of dying from a AZ induced blood clot is higher than the risk of dying from Covid in helathy under 50s (in fact under 60s in huge parts of Europe).

As previously stated the death rate for under 50s in Australia from AZ induced blood clots is higher than 1 in 2 million, because the number of under 50s who have actually had AZ in Australia is well under a million.

I simply feel no need to take a risk (of clots or death) with AZ vaccine when there is a readily available alternative vaccine in Pfizer which is what is recommended for my age.

The chances of getting Covid in Australia right now are very small, and if I did the chances of me dying from it are miniscule. No one under 50 has died in NSW from Covid. The chances of getting Covid after being fully vaccinated are even smaller, and the chances that the outcome would be fatal when vaccine reduces severity are microscopic.

Then there is a possible problem developing with the Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis

I googled this when you first mentioned it the other day, in the USA at least the CDC says incidence of myocarditis following Pfizer is no higher or lower than in populations who arent vaccinated. We need to wait for confirmed connection.

You say there has been 160 deaths from the 110m (guessing mRNAjabs, Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson). Has there been any outline of cause(s)?

None provided on this thread anywhere.

Yes they died in hospital with Covid.

but could have also had other comorbidities. And we know that not everyone who is vaccinated with any vaccine goes on to develop immunity, some peopel just have very poor performing immune systems and are cough at making antibodies.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Thats not what I was doing, several pages back Dr Ron and Flying Mermaid were tryng to imply that 160/101,000,000 was a "high rate" warranting concern. So my question which has never been answered is why is 160/110M a high rate but 1/200k for serious AZ side effects not considered high enough to worry about?

Further the information on the US post Covid vaccine deaths provided only total number, nothing about how long after vaccination the person died, which vacine they had had (and whetehr they had doses at the recommended intervals), the age or health of the people who died (did they have co-morbidities), whether they were treated in hospital etc.

Yet on the basis of this number, we arebeing asked to accept that all the other countires using Pfizer globablly have made the wrong decision in recommending 3 weeks between doses and that UK's decision to stretch beyond 7 weeks (which was done solely because of a goal to get first doses out) means everyone else is doing the wrong thing.

You are putting words in my mouth again - I don’t even know what you and Dr Ron are arguing about and I haven’t taken part, as it looks excruciatingly boring, but your comparison of clotting and deaths jumped out at me as I scrolled through and I had to butt in, as it is just plain illogical.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Yes they died in hospital with Covid.

So are these deaths more likely related to vaccine efficacy or vaccine side effects or something else?

 

[drron]

So are these deaths more likely related to vaccine efficacy or vaccine side effects or something else?

Vaccine efficacy.

 

[JohnM]

Vaccine efficacy.

What is the age, sex, race, co-morbidities etc. of the 160 fatalities?