General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[serfty]

Iceland is experiencing its worst Covid-19 pandemic outbreak.

That’s despite near-total vaccination levels. And what Delta’s doing there may now be a sign of things to come for Australia.

The issue seems to be that once vaccination rates are high enough that all precautions seem to be chucked away too. Social distancing, masks, crowding etc. Instead of a stepped approach it's all or nothing. Binary again.

Two big takeaways from that:

Hospitalisations are down from 20% non vaxx to 1.2% and No deaths.

Now, the sparsely populated island has more than 1590 active cases. About 20 are in hospital, with a quarter of those in intensive care. While that doesn’t sound like many, in such a small country even that number puts a strain on its healthcare resources.
...
The big difference, however, is in the severity of the symptoms.

Previous outbreaks of non-Delta variants among much lower vaccination rates claimed 29 Icelandic lives. The latest outbreak – despite its size – has so far claimed none.

 

[Pushka]

Two big takeaways from that:

Hospitalisations are down from 20% non vaxx to 1.2% and No deaths.

And that will be the hard swallow for Australian Health people to take. Infections not equating to a surge in hospitalization coupled with an acceptable level of death from this infection.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

However, the percentage in the hospital is extremely low. According to the article, these low numbers are still straining Iceland's healthcare system BUT the vaccine is doing its job. Many states in the USA offer a real life comparison of impact on the healthcare system where there is low vaccination versus high vaccination. I really do hope that the vaccines do protect against long COVID - even a mild case can result in long COVID and this is not something I've seen written about re: Delta. Likely because the info/data isn't there yet.

Yes there is good news - lower hospitalisation (and presumably deaths) but the bad news is they had to reinstitute some restrictions despite 85%-95% vaccination. I think Iceland is a unitary system of government, so an Australian resident could imagine what the Australian federal system of government could come up with.

 

[sjk]

I pass on the details as accurately as possible and attempt not to twist.

The facts do not support this claim.

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2021

Not a good/promising article which might eventuate eventuate for all countries.

Not if you quote that selectively, no.

Otherwise it's generally good news.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

The facts do not support this claim.

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2021

Not if you quote that selectively, no.

Otherwise it's generally good news.

I didn't quote selectively, I just copied the first few paragraphs of the article....

There is good and bad news - to me living in Australia and hearing that some restriction have been reimposed despite a 85-95% vaccination - could mean horrible news in Australia's federal system of government. Yes good news on the hospitalisation front

 

[pagingjoan]

It is clear one dose provides limited protection against Delta, getting people to 2 doses is what keeps them out of ICU, you need only look at Sydney current outbreak for proof of that.

And the next line, not in your quote, was:
In total, 86 per cent of the population has been fully vaccinated.

 

[Lynda2475]

And the next line, not in your quote, was:
In total, 86 per cent of the population has been fully vaccinated.

It wasnt my quote I didnt post the article.

But those ending up in hospital and ICU are those who are not fully vaccinated, so my point holds you need 2 doses for optimal outcome. 1 dose provides very little protection against Delta - there are several people in ICU with 1 AZ dose, but none who were fully vaccinated.

 

[drron]

RAM said:



From The Age article, 2nd paragraph.

Dr Rochelle Walensky, the director of the agency, acknowledged Tuesday that vaccinated people with so-called breakthrough infections of the Delta variant carry just as much virus in their nose and throat as unvaccinated people.

No mischaracterisation.

That doesn't necessarily mean more contagious.The results of many studies are very divergent on this subject.
As I said before things in medicine are not necessarily black and white. You can't jump from more virus to more contagious without studies that are designed to look for that.

 

[pagingjoan]

It wasnt my quote I didnt post the article.

But those ending up in hospital and ICU are those who are not fully vaccinated, so my point holds you need 2 doses for optimal outcome. 1 dose provides very little protection against Delta - there are several people in ICU with 1 AZ dose, but none who were fully vaccinated.

For the record, HappyFlyerFamily's Post 1655:

"Some 96 per cent of all Icelandic women over 16 have received at least one vaccine dose. The figure for men is about 90 per cent.

In total, 86 per cent of the population has been fully vaccinated." (My bolding)

Then your Post 1660:

HappyFlyerFamily said:
Some 96 per cent of all Icelandic women over 16 have received at least one vaccine dose

It is clear one dose provides limited protection against Delta, getting people to 2 doses is what keeps them out of ICU, you need only look at Sydney current outbreak for proof of that.

I was citing the following sentence that you had omitted from your "quote", which gave the figure for the "fully vaccinated".

 

[Lynda2475]

I was citing the following sentence that you had omitted from your "quote", which gave the figure for the "fully vaccinated".

The pertinent part is that it is the unvaccinated and partially vacicnated are driving cases. If you choose not to get vacicnated or drag your heels on timely vaccination you are at risk of serious disease.

The fully vacicnated arent ending up in ICU or dead, and the current sitiation in Sydney as well as the article support that fact.

 

[pagingjoan]

Off you go. As will I.

 

[drron]

Unfortunately it is probably only a matter of time before someone who is fully vaccinated ends up dying of covid in Australia.
I have posted a couple of times the figures from LA County.Until July 13th they had had 26 deaths from covid who were fully vaccinated.Miniscule compared to the deaths of unvaccinater people but unfortunately not zero.
In previous years there have been reports of people who have had the flu vaccine dying of flu.No vaccine is perfect but you are much better off being vaccinated than not.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Louisiana USA
37% of population 12 years and up fully vaccinated.

Delta in full swing there
7 day average 4000 new cases

2720 patients in hospital
318 patients on ventilators
Medical Directors pleading with people to get vaccinated.

Extrapolated to NSW population with current restrictions lifted, maybe a mask mandate (they have that in Louisiana now)
Over 600 patients ventilated in ICU across the state.

Watch this clip, Dr Catherine O’Neil
I hope it isn’t repeated here.

Dr Catherine O’Neil Our Lady of the Lake

 

[Princess Fiona]

Claiming something repeatedly does not make it true. Please detail what I have mischaracterised?

The study identifed that someone who is fully vaccinated can be infected with the Delta variant, be asymptomatic and spread CV without knowing it. It also identified that someone who is fully vaccinated can carry just as high a viral load as someone infected & unvaccinated.

So someone, fully vaccinated can spread CV unwittingly if they are a 'breakthrough case '& with no symptoms as the vaccine is doing its job for them.

As happened in Sydney at Liverpool Hospital, leading to 5 deaths so far.

The US Centre for Disease Control were so concerned by the findings that they REVERSED their advice for fully vaccinated people.

In Australia, no reaction nor update has been made.

Bottom line: Act as if everyone, including you, may be carrying CV as there is no way of knowing without frequent testing.

You are incorrect about the covid cases at Liverpool hospital. The nurse that transmitted the infection had only received one dose of vaccine.

There was a fully vaccinated nurse at Westmead test positive but no cases from that person.

 

[Lynda2475]

Having spent much time in Louisiana it is not really a comparable to NSW. They have a much larger proportion of poorer people without health insurance. Without the safety net of Medicare in US, people often delay or cant access medical assistance when they become unwell due to fear of medical bankrupcy.

NSW has a huge issue right now with non-compliance in certain LGAs, but as a whole people are staying home and wearing their masks. Speaking to friends in New Orleans, very few there are wearing masks and a much higher proportion of antivaxxers even though they have free access to MRNA vaccine options.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Having spent much time in Louisiana it is not really a comparable to NSW. They have a much larger proportion of poorer people without health insurance. Without the safety net of Medicare in US, people often delay or cant access medical assistance when they become unwell die to fear of medical bankrupcy.

NSW has a huge issue right now with non-compliance in certain LGAs, but as a whole people are staying home and wearing their masks. Speaking to friends in New Orleans, very few there are wearing masks and a much higher proportion of antivaxxers even though they have free access to MRNA vaccine options.

The ones without health insurance aren’t on a ventilator in ICU

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

The ones without health insurance aren’t on a ventilator in ICU

So the uninsured factor would make the extrapolated ventilator number higher?

 

[Princess Fiona]

So the uninsured factor would make the extrapolated ventilator number higher?

Yes it would although I didn’t even go that far on my back of a fa_ packet calculator.

 

[RAM]

You are incorrect about the covid cases at Liverpool hospital. The nurse that transmitted the infection had only received one dose of vaccine.

There was a fully vaccinated nurse at Westmead test positive but no cases from that person.

Thank you for the correction, I quoted verbatim what Brad Hazzard said, but if it was wrong then stand corrected.

That means there were only 3 breakthrough cases (the 3 fully vaccinated staff infected) not 4 then at that stage.

There are now 9 Liverpool hospital staff infected with CV from that outbreak (Kerry Chant reported today but did not provide vaccination details).

 

[sjk]

Unfortunately it is probably only a matter of time before someone who is fully vaccinated ends up dying of covid in Australia.

And if Australia gets to 70% vaccinated by the end of this year, I estimate that you'll get over 120,000 deaths of fully vaccinated people in 2022. Not many of COVID, though.