General Discussion/Q&A on Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[p--and--t]

American Airlines, United Airlines and Delta are now making it mandatory for passengers to use masks onboard effective early May. (Airline Geeks May 2nd)

 

[p--and--t]

JetBlue announced that starting May 4 all customers will be required to wear a face covering during travel. The policy comes after the airljne began requiring all crewmembers to wear face coverings while working.

 

[Flashback]

So, as expected ..... lockdown will not be lifted in the UK. Manufacturing and construction workers are allowed to go to work now, ideally not by public transport. What kind of bubble do these guys live in?

Unlimited amounts of exercise now rather than once per day, but still only with your immediate household etc.

There is a new alert system and ranges from 1 to 5. While in lockdown we've been considered to be 4 on that scale, with 1 being the disease is 'no longer there'.

Schools (primary) to start opening from early June is the current plan, in a phased approach.

Step 3, earliest by July.... if the numbers support it, then they'll look at allowing hospitality places to open like restaurants etc.

As expected, a non-committal statement around 14 days quarantine on international arrivals by air only; "we plan that we may do this" and there was no timeline given. There was a lack of mentioning ports which shows the discussions at DfT have been disregarded and instead the Home Office has come up with a half-baked statement, etc.

 

[drron]

A little more info.
First the nose and the cells that the virus invades first.the same cells are also in the cornea and gut so possible further routes of infection.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

Understanding testing.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

The USA ramping up researching testing and treatments.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

And maybe a couple of people here weren't as silly as thought.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

 

[cgichard]

My hunch, based on no knowledge or science whatsoever, is that air conditioning, and in particular, the type that recirculates air albeit filtered, is a major contributor to the spread of the virus. Hence the high transmission rates on cruise ships, planes, and meatworks etc.

 

[Pushka]

My hunch, based on no knowledge or science whatsoever, is that air conditioning, and in particular, the type that recirculates air albeit filtered, is a major contributor to the spread of the virus. Hence the high transmission rates on cruise ships, planes, and meatworks etc.

during the Princess Diamond issue a ship Engineer was posting on Cruise Critic forum and he said the air conditioning on ships doesn't allow transmission of the virus. I glazed over at the technical explanation. And same with planes - the air is filtered continuously. The issue with meat packing is close proximity and the chill required to safely handle meat and which the virus likes, as opposed to heat.

 

[p--and--t]

My hunch, based on no knowledge or science whatsoever, is that air conditioning, and in particular, the type that recirculates air albeit filtered, is a major contributor to the spread of the virus. Hence the high transmission rates on cruise ships, planes, and meatworks etc.

There is a major difference between ships and planes.

It has been reported ships recirculate at least 30% of the air without HEPA filters.

As far as I have read so far, all modern planes are fitted with HEPA filters and the air gets cycled very frequently. In addition there are no proven cases of transmission on a plane anywhere in the world so far.

There are hundreds of cases of infection on ships, where infection via air-conditioning is not yet proven, but suspected, especially for cabins with no direct access to fresh air via open-able windows or balconies. The jury is out.

As for the Victorian meat packing plant, I have not seen any comprehensive analysis released as yet on the numbers suspected as infected at the plant or alternatively via secondary contact. Also I have no knowledge of their air-conditioning or other processes.

Someone with more information in the relevant industries may care to respond.

 

[DC3]

Cruise ship air conditioning systems are not designed to filter out viruses, from my limited reading on the subject.

 

[drron]

It is Grandma's evidence that viruses love the cold.Why then does Townsville sometimes have lots of influenza in their winter when the temp is ~ 24C-ie about the same as a Tasmanian summer.
Back during WW2 and after this was refuted.People were sent out on to the English Downs in winter by themselves.None got a common cold.But when brought back to the barracks they did.
Then people at other times inoculated with a common cold virus.No difference in the appearance of symptoms in hot or cold temperatures.

The problem is in colder weather people tend to congregate indoors.
In Townsville winter means the football season so thousands congregate to watch the Cowboys and celebrate or commiserate later in the Cowboys club.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

My hunch, based on no knowledge or science whatsoever, is that air conditioning, and in particular, the type that recirculates air albeit filtered, is a major contributor to the spread of the virus. Hence the high transmission rates on cruise ships, planes, and meatworks etc.

The three examples you mentioned are most likely to more due to close physical proximity and fomite (touching of surfaces) transmission. ie People circulating.
A meatwoks may however have some rooms where perhaps the room is poorly ventilated. If so then that yes could bea factor. The USA meatworks tended to be crowded workplaces, shared lunchrooms etc.


There is air conditioning, and then there is air conditioning......

Proper HVAC 's are most likely not a major spreader of the virus. It is most likely to not even be a minor spreader. HVAC in larger builders, aircraft and cruise ships should not be confused with room air conditioners whether they be split systems or wall units (ie as in house, small shops, small offices) as these are basically just like fans which can increase the range of droplet transmission (ie The Chinese restaurant example. Note however despite all the other other investigations of transmission investigated worldwide that other such reports have not been made, and so this problem is probably not a widespread one. In house to as the it is normally the same people reading there fans and AC are not a risk factor. If you have mixing of people in small poorly ventilated spaces then it can be a risk factor. ie small shop, office or cafe).

• Airliners:
  • Except for some smaller or much older aircraft, airplanes are equipped with True High-Efficiency Particle Filters (True HEPA) or High-Efficiency Particle Filters (HEPA).
  • Depending on the type of aircraft, air may be recirculated throughout the entire cabin or only within limited zones. All large commercial jet aircraft provide approximately 20 air exchanges per hour during cruising, with lower amounts during descent and while on the ground.
  • So on passenger aircraft spread has been limited to most liking proximity of being near an infected person. ie within 2 rows. Fomite (through) transmission is possible but not likely
• Cruise ships. Again most likely no. HVAC not likely to play role in coronavirus spread on cruise ship
• Large buildings including offices and retail space. Again most likely no.
• Hospitals and the like. As these buildings regularly have potential for airborne viruses and bacteria spread they are designed with much high HVAC measures including HEPA, more air changes per our and are more likely to have UV installed due heightened ongoing risk from a wide range of sources. Some rooms will have even greater measure for infection control with negative pressure, airlocks etc
  • Note that in overwhelmed hospitals viral loads can be very high, aersol transmission may be occurring due to intubations and other invasive procedures and rooms with less appropriate hospital grade HVAC may be used and certainly rooms not designed for infectious disease control will be used. This is though to be why medical staff in say Italian Hospitals have had a high infection rate, whereas say in Greece not one medical worker infected within the workplace.

With cruise ships and normal large building HVAC various filters may be in place. Most will not filter a true aerosol transmission of Covid 19.


Possible concern

Now one possible concern is that while Covid 19 can spread by droplet transmission (and droplets normally fall within 2 m if not pushed by wind or fans (or room AC) is that the droplet may dry causing it to dry out and hence become small and lighter which could then allow it to float further. It is not normally spread by true aersol transmission where the particle is just the virus alone (ie it is normally attached to a water droplet or mucus).

HEPA filters will screen out droplet transmission, and other MERV ( Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value ) filters may also capture droplets. What type of filters are in office and retail shopping centre HVAC will be quite variable.

What is possible, what is probable

Note that for the time being while more is being learnt building managers need to be cautious and go more with what may possibly occur, and not just what will probably occur. So to be prudent building mangers will be (and have already) altering how they operate their HVAC.

Now with HVAC the humidity (or RH relative humidity) is controlled and so it is important that HVAC's be well maintained and operated correctly.

The other recommendations at present include (there are actually many otherthings including PPE for staff mainting or working on HVAC etc):

• To maximise fresh air ventilation (Note most HVAC mixes existing indoor air with some fresh air. Some fresh air is required to have an appropriate air quality and this has also been shown in studies to for example improve learning outcomes in students. On the other hand 100% fresh air would cause much greater energy consumption as the difference in air temperature being cooled/ heated would be much greater).
• Change the clock times of system timers to start ventilation at nominal speed at least 2 hours before the building usage time and switch to lower speed 2 hours after the building usage time. (ie this basically assist with flushing out the building more). 24/ 7 operation should be considered
• To upgrade where appropriate the MERV Filter being used. This may not be possible in all cases as it depends on the cpacity of the HVAC f it can take the extra load. You cannot just bolt in HEPA filters if not already used as the ducting is different and the engineering would not be adequate for the much greater load.

The Occupant:

• HVAC is designed to provide a band of comfort for the occupant. Temperature and humidity (RH) being the main one bust there are other factors including air quality.
• Due to Covid 19 Building Managers/ Building Service Engineers will be concentrating on increased air ventilation while controlling RH (They do not want the droplets to dry out, plus there are also some theories on RH effects on the virus itself). This means that thermal comfort for the occupants will most likely be sacrificed and so you may notice greater fluctuations in temperature and/or that the temperature will be cooler or warmer than normal. (Note as HVAC is designed witha normal % of fresh air in mind, that higher % of fresh air needed to be cooled or heated may mean that the HVAC simply cannot keep up. For this reason too while 100% fresh air may be desirable for health, most HVAC simply was not designed to do this).

AG Coombs is a well regarded operator in HVAC in Australia. They have a good advisory update on their website:

HVAC and COVID-19

There is considerable interest in the role that HVAC may play in the transmission of COVID-19. This Advisory Note provides an overview on viral transmission, how HVAC systems work, and the practical HVAC operational measures that can be considered along with possible design changes to reduce the...

www.agcoombs.com.au

 

[RooFlyer]

It is Grandma's evidence that viruses love the cold.Why then does Townsville sometimes have lots of influenza in their winter when the temp is ~ 24C-ie about the same as a Tasmanian summer.
Back during WW2 and after this was refuted.People were sent out on to the English Downs in winter by themselves.None got a common cold.But when brought back to the barracks they did.
Then people at other times inoculated with a common cold virus.No difference in the appearance of symptoms in hot or cold temperatures.

Although I know I'm boxing above my weight , let me reply:

People in Townsville in winter behave more like Tas winter , not Tas summer - congregate more indoors (shivering, no doubt, poor souls) or at packed footy/rugby stadiums, hence more opportunity for virus to spread person-to-person. In cold, rainy climates, viruses (in general) can survive the cold, damp environments, better than in hot, dry environments (ie surfaces) - although not talking about humid Nth Australia here.

The WW2 example merely proved that the 'cold' doesn't create 'the cold', rather it spreads by contact, yes? And inoculation with the virus - sure, all will get it, hot or cold, but we are talking about transmission, aren't we?

 

[p--and--t]

There is a major difference between ships and planes.

It has been reported ships recirculate at least 30% of the air without HEPA filters.

As far as I have read so far, all modern planes are fitted with HEPA filters and the air gets cycled very frequently. In addition there are no proven cases of transmission on a plane anywhere in the world so far.

There are hundreds of cases of infection on ships, where infection via air-conditioning is not yet proven, but suspected, especially for cabins with no direct access to fresh air via open-able windows or balconies. The jury is out.

As for the Victorian meat packing plant, I have not seen any comprehensive analysis released as yet on the numbers suspected as infected at the plant or alternatively via secondary contact. Also I have no knowledge of their air-conditioning or other processes.

Someone with more information in the relevant industries may care to respond.

Further to this

Coronavirus drifts through the air in microscopic droplets – here’s the science of infectious aerosols

Aerosols are the tiny particles of liquid and material that float around in our environment. When they come from an infected person, they may be a significant source of coronavirus transmission.

theconversation.com

Article expired

News on Japan, Business News, Opinion, Sports, Entertainment and More

www.japantimes.co.jp

Coronavirus and airborne transmission: scientists warn Australia to be on guard

Although the science is not yet settled, researchers say government should be acting on ventilation and other measures now

www.theguardian.com

This one is long and worthwhile watching the whole lot but the last 15 or so minutes was very informative.

COVID-19: Battle on the Cruise Ship - NHK Documentary | NHK WORLD-JAPAN On Demand

Japanese authorities faced their first large cluster of COVID-19 infections in early February when the Diamond Princess luxury cruise ship returned to port in Yokohama. Of the 3,700 passengers and crew, more than 700 were infected with the novel coronavirus, and 13 people died. NHK conducted an...

www3.nhk.or.jp

Airborne diseases: Types, prevention, and symptoms

Airborne diseases transmit between people when droplets containing microorganisms remain suspended in the air, for example, after a person coughs. Here, find out more.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

The absolute strongest message - wash your hands, wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands

 

[lovetravellingoz]

The absolute strongest message - wash your hands, wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands

While important, I think that most transmissions have occurred from being in close proximity to an infected person. So maintain your distance, maintain your distance and maintain your distance

 

[p--and--t]

While important, I think that most transmissions have occurred from being in close proximity to an infected person. So maintain you distance, maintain your distance and maintain your distance

Yep, if you are not in the same environment as infected people, then infection likelihood is greatly reduced. Staying at home is the safest. If you are going out stay as far away from from others as you can, try not to touch surfaces, don't touch your face, and wash/sanitise your hands regularly.

The message I picked up from the long video was that virus transmission via surfaces maybe where most of the Pacific Princess patients may have been infected. Separately research seems to reveal the jury is out on the 1.5-2M spacing and that 6m+ might be the danger zone if someone coughs.

 

[drron]

Although I know I'm boxing above my weight , let me reply:

People in Townsville in winter behave more like Tas winter , not Tas summer - congregate more indoors (shivering, no doubt, poor souls) or at packed footy/rugby stadiums, hence more opportunity for virus to spread person-to-person. In cold, rainy climates, viruses (in general) can survive the cold, damp environments, better than in hot, dry environments (ie surfaces) - although not talking about humid Nth Australia here.

The WW2 example merely proved that the 'cold' doesn't create 'the cold', rather it spreads by contact, yes? And inoculation with the virus - sure, all will get it, hot or cold, but we are talking about transmission, aren't we?

Indeed that is what FNQ folk do in winter.
In fact it seems football matches can be a potent source of viral infection.Especially higher grade matches.People shouting and singing in a loud voice can project their droplets a lot further.Top league soccer matches are thought to have caused the problems in Bergamo,Italy and in I believe Valencia in Spain.

Yes they did inoculate volunteers and ambient temperatures made no difference in the numbers developing symptoms.Which means that people are more likely to get a respiratory viral illness in cold weather because they congregate more indoors.

Just one correction you said footy/rugby matches,now if you meant footy as in AFL that is not really what goes on.Plenty of distance as very few spectators especially if a Cowboys match is on the same day.

 

[p--and--t]

Indeed that is what FNQ folk do in winter.
In fact it seems football matches can be a potent source of viral infection.Especially higher grade matches.People shouting and singing in a loud voice can project their droplets a lot further.Top league soccer matches are thought to have caused the problems in Bergamo,Italy and in I believe Valencia in Spain.

Yes they did inoculate volunteers and ambient temperatures made no difference in the numbers developing symptoms.Which means that people are more likely to get a respiratory viral illness in cold weather because they congregate more indoors.

Just one correction you said footy/rugby matches,now if you meant footy as in AFL that is not really what goes on.Plenty of distance as very few spectators especially if a Cowboys match is on the same day.

I read somewhere, not sure where, reverse cycle air-conditioning (on heating mode) may exacerbate because either infection risk spread is higher or we are more susceptible (dryer upper respiratory track) in dryer atmospheric conditions. Is that what you have also read?

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Yep, if you are not in the same environment as infected people, then infection likelihood is greatly reduced. Staying at home is the safest. If you are going out stay as far away from from others as you can, try not to touch surfaces, don't touch your face, and wash/sanitise your hands regularly.

The message I picked up from the long video was that virus transmission via surfaces maybe where most of the Pacific Princess patients may have been infected. Separately research seems to reveal the jury is out on the 1.5-2M spacing and that 6m+ might be the danger zone if someone coughs.

One of the points in the articles you posted had:

Another crucial unknown is the infectious dose: the number of SARS-CoV-2 particles necessary to cause an infection, says Lloyd-Smith. “If you’re breathing aerosolized virus, we don’t know what the infectious dose is that gives a significant chance of being infected,” he says. An experiment to get at that number — deliberately exposing people and measuring the infection rate at different doses — would be unethical given the disease’s severity.

With coughing, yes it can spread droplets further, but the further away the lower the concentration of droplets and hence Covid 19 and so in theory the less likely you are to catch Covid 19.

Will one cough infect you? No one will probably give you categorical yes or no, but the overall view seems to be that you need to receive a certain dose to become infected, and if infected perhaps a higher does again to be badly affected.

So the general advice seems to be that you need extended contact, and that passing contact is unlikely to infect.

The viral load quantity is one reason that has been theorised as to be why some overwhelmed hospitals have had so many health workers infected, and not just infected but to have had more seemingly fit and young people have severe affects including death.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I read somewhere, not sure where, reverse cycle air-conditioning (on heating mode) may exacerbate because either infection spread is higher or we are more susceptible in dryer atmospheric conditions. Is that what you have also read?

There is a theory at present (as per my post above) that drier air can reduce the size of the droplet that the virus is attached to and hence allow it to be spread more as it may float more and hence further.

This is why with HVAC that the humidity is controlled in a certain range (and not just for CV19, but for influenza etc).

This is the recommendation of the various bodies around the world that deal with HVAC ( I follow this as this is an industry that I am professionally involved with educating).


Now with reverse cycle conditioning you probably mean the bog standard one that you see in homes, small offices and shops etc. It is not just the heating mode as cooling mode will also dry (dehumidify ) the air. Plus room air conditioners do not have ducting etc an so are essentially operating like fans (but with cooling/heating.


If in your home. No problem, as you are already in close contact with the occupants.

In small shops, offices etc....then another story if you have random people coming and going and in particular if they are staying for extended periods (ie a restaurant).

With your room AC, if it has an outside air setting, open that up so that fresh air is mixed in. In your building if it is not just the same group there all the time (ie as in a house), seek to improve ventilation.

Though if we in our community have virtually no one with Covid 19, then the risk is removed of course. So in two weeks time would I be comfortable in a small restaurant on a shopping strip = Yes. In March = No.

 

[VPS]

So, as expected ..... lockdown will not be lifted in the UK. Manufacturing and construction workers are allowed to go to work now, ideally not by public transport. What kind of bubble do these guys live in?

Unlimited amounts of exercise now rather than once per day, but still only with your immediate household etc.

There is a new alert system and ranges from 1 to 5. While in lockdown we've been considered to be 4 on that scale, with 1 being the disease is 'no longer there'.

Schools (primary) to start opening from early June is the current plan, in a phased approach.

Step 3, earliest by July.... if the numbers support it, then they'll look at allowing hospitality places to open like restaurants etc.

As expected, a non-committal statement around 14 days quarantine on international arrivals by air only; "we plan that we may do this" and there was no timeline given. There was a lack of mentioning ports which shows the discussions at DfT have been disregarded and instead the Home Office has come up with a half-baked statement, etc.

I must admit the UK message is very ambiguous. I told my friend in London that I wouldn't be coming for Christmas and she her niece from Melbourne is coming and has booked her tickets. She thinks it will be fine because they are family. She is in la la land and won't listen to science. Plus there is going to be another wave in a few months I think (just a guess)

 

[Flashback]

I must admit the UK message is very ambiguous. I told my friend in London that I wouldn't be coming for Christmas and she her niece from Melbourne is coming and has booked her tickets. She thinks it will be fine because they are family. She is in la la land and won't listen to science. Plus there is going to be another wave in a few months I think (just a guess)

Since the announcement there's already been further relaxation on restrictions, just really goes with the fact of how half baked the message was last night.

'I hope, hope, hope' for a vaccine, but it is not guaranteed, says Johnson — as it happened | Coronavirus | The Guardian

Official death toll rises by 210; government publishes 50-page blueprint; Keir Starmer says Johnson’s strategy has caused ‘considerable confusion’

amp.theguardian.com

Raab says people in England will be allowed to meet up with others outside if they socially distance
In his speech last night Boris Johnson said the lockdown rules for England were being changed so that people could play sports, “but only with members of your own household”.

But at the same time No 10 briefed journalists separately that people would be allowed to meet one other person from outside their household outdoors, provided they kept two metres apart.

As already mentioned, Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, confirmed this when he gave interviews this morning. He told BBC Breakfast:

If you’re out in the park and you’re two metres apart, we’re saying now, and use some common sense and you socially distance, you can meet up with other people.

You can see that will result in people visiting friend/families houses too. I've seen it happen a lot already in our street........

There's meant to be another announcement at 2pm today apparently, I'm guessing the backlash from last night's non-announcement was a strong driver behind it. There's a 50 page blueprint that's meant to be released, too.