Grammar Discussions

[medhead]

I showed the for sale sign to someone at work who has recently become an Aussie. They said they received a letter to congratulate them on becoming true blue from their local pollie (not sure if federal or state). They were disgusted at the numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes. Sentences that weren't sentences, run on sentences etc.etc.

 

[anat0l]

I am still laughing at the grammar corrections on the real estate sign. Now where is my chisel point texta??

There was a story that made the news (online and print) once where a letter of complaint sent by resident to the local council was returned to the resident covered in red ink - you guessed it, the council representative (or delegate) basically "corrected" it for grammar errors and sent it right back without acknowledging the letter content.

I can't remember if the article was presenting this as an example of a snobbish / insensitive council, or how not to write a letter to the council.

 

[anat0l]

Number 3. Both are correct and express the same thing.

"That" is a subordinating conjunction linking the principal clause "I didn't think" to the subordinate clause "that was such a bad idea".

However - to avoid repetition "that" would normally be omitted. It's perfectly fine and often happens in a spoken language with conjunctions.

Thanks sergeyvzn... what would I do without you...

You can tell I'm looking at these in light of my adopted lingua franca. So, here's another set of two, however in this case I believe there is a distinction (even if subtle) between these two sentences:

1. "We had had meetings about this issue."
2. "We had meetings about this issue."

I believe, in practice, despite there being a semantic distinction, people will tend to use these interchangeably (or, rather the second one since it is simpler). Most who listen to it (or indeed read it) will not be in the slightest perturbed by the lack of semantic differentiation.

 

[sergeyvzn]

Thanks sergeyvzn... what would I do without you...

You can tell I'm looking at these in light of my adopted lingua franca. So, here's another set of two, however in this case I believe there is a distinction (even if subtle) between these two sentences:

1. "We had had meetings about this issue."
2. "We had meetings about this issue."

I believe, in practice, despite there being a semantic distinction, people will tend to use these interchangeably (or, rather the second one since it is simpler). Most who listen to it (or indeed read it) will not be in the slightest perturbed by the lack of semantic differentiation.

Of course there is

1) Past Perfect Tense. It's used to indicate that something happened in the past before something else happened. There's a hint thrown - something like that you had had meetings before you made a decision on something. Even if there isn't a proper subordinate clause actually saying something happened after you had these meetings as this is only a simple sentence, you can construct the cause and effect link in your mind by just listening or reading the sentence
2) Past Indefinite Tense. It's used to tell your audience that something happened in the past. There's no hint that there is a connection to anything that may have happened later in the past. A simple fact, that's all
Have a lovely Friday, everyone-

 

[andye]

I learnt most of my grammar doing Latin and it was a long time ago but I thought that (1) was a pluperfect and (2) past perfect. Past imperfect would be "we were having meetings"

 

[sergeyvzn]

I learnt most of my grammar doing Latin and it was a long time ago but I thought that (1) was a pluperfect and (2) past perfect. Past imperfect would be "we were having meetings"

ohh those poor confused souls...

Ok, you started it

there are 4 groups of verb tenses in the English language. This applies both to Active Voice and Passive Voice but I will only touch Active Voice now.

1) Indefinite, aka Simple - there's a Future, a Present and a Past

simple fact or action, once or repeated

Present Indefinite (Simple) - I go to school Monday to Friday
Future Indefinite (Simple) - I will go to school next year
Past Indefinite (Simple) - I went home yesterday after work and ate dinner. Or, using the original example - we had meetings about this issue

2) Perfect - it also has it's Future, its Past and its Present

Something happened before something else, be it the moment of speech (now, as we are speaking about it) or a defined moment in the present, future of past

Present Perfect - I have spoken to him about this issue today (it has already happened by now as we are talking about it, i.e. by the moment of speech)

Future Perfect - I will have spoken to him about it tomorrow before I go to work

Past Perfect - I had spoken to him about this before we went to the meeting together. Or, using the original example - we had had meetings about this issue (implying that something else happened later, prior to which we had had meetings and this defined the moment in the past before which the meetings had happened)

3) Continuous - a Future, a Present and a Past

an action that is in the processing of happening, i.e. lasting for a while

Present Continuous - I am writing this sentence in the Australian Frequent Flyer thread right now.

Future Continuous - I will be having meetings to discuss this issue for a week next month in Brisbane

Past Continuous - I was walking home when I got stopped by the police.


4) Perfect Continuous - it's got a Present, a Past and a Future

it's a chimera, a strange hybrid. On the one hand it's something that has already happened but on the other hand it's still continuing in a sense. It combines finite and infinite features, basically describing something that started, is still happening; or finished before a moment in the past after lasting for a while; or will last for a while in the future before something else will happen

Present Perfect Continuous - I have been living in Sydney for 12 years by now.

Future Perfect Continuous - I will have been discussing this issue for about an hour by 11 am tomorrow morning if we start at 10 am tomorrow.

Past Perfect Continuous - I had been living in Russia for 37 years before I moved to Sydney in 2003 (this is true).

Does it make sense? If it doesn't PM me and I will give you a private lesson but this is going to cost you

 

[andye]

ohh those poor confused souls...

Ok, you started it

there are 4 groups of verb tenses in the English language. This applies both to Active Voice and Passive Voice but I will only touch Active Voice now.

1) Indefinite, aka Simple - there's a Future, a Present and a Past

simple fact or action, once or repeated

Present Indefinite (Simple) - I go to school Monday to Friday
Future Indefinite (Simple) - I will go to school next year
Past Indefinite (Simple) - I went home yesterday after work and ate dinner. Or, using the original example - we had meetings about this issue

2) Perfect - it also has it's Future, its Past and its Present

Something happened before something else, be it the moment of speech (now, as we are speaking about it) or a defined moment in the present, future of past

Present Perfect - I have spoken to him about this issue today (it has already happened by now as we are talking about it, i.e. by the moment of speech)

Future Perfect - I will have spoken to him about it tomorrow before I go to work

Past Perfect - I had spoken to him about this before we went to the meeting together. Or, using the original example - we had had meetings about this issue (implying that something else happened later, prior to which we had had meetings and this defined the moment in the past before which the meetings had happened)

3) Continuous - a Future, a Present and a Past

an action that is in the processing of happening, i.e. lasting for a while

Present Continuous - I am writing this sentence in the Australian Frequent Flyer thread right now.

Future Continuous - I will be having meetings to discuss this issue for a week next month in Brisbane

Past Continuous - I was walking home when I got stopped by the police.


4) Perfect Continuous - it's got a Present, a Past and a Future

it's a chimera, a strange hybrid. On the one hand it's something that has already happened but on the other hand it's still continuing in a sense. It combines finite and infinite features, basically describing something that started, is still happening; or finished before a moment in the past after lasting for a while; or will last for a while in the future before something else will happen

Present Perfect Continuous - I have been living in Sydney for 12 years by now.

Future Perfect Continuous - I will have been discussing this issue for about an hour by 11 am tomorrow morning if we start at 10 am tomorrow.

Past Perfect Continuous - I had been living in Russia for 37 years before I moved to Sydney in 2003 (this is true).

Does it make sense? If it doesn't PM me and I will give you a private lesson but this is going to cost you

That's not how I had it organised in my head but I like your way of organising the English tenses, particularly as the perfect continuous isn't a common construction..

Your model still lacks the Pluperfect- We had had meetings.

 

[sergeyvzn]

That's not how I had it organised in my head but I like your way of organising the English tenses, particularly as the perfect continuous isn't a common construction..

Your model still lacks the Pluperfect- We had had meetings.

It's not my model, I wish I was that great. It's a commonly used model, under commonly used I mean that if you buy any English grammar book you will find a similar thing there

the "Pluperfect" you are talking about is there - it's the Past Perfect Tense, you must've overlooked it in my very long post

The "Plusquamperfect" that exists in Latin, German, Spanish etc is the "past past" tense. It's the Past Perfect Tense in English. It denotes an action that happens prior to a past action, that's why it is "past past". In English, the Perfect group of tenses has this in it in the sense that "perfect" means "finite", an action that is complete to a certain moment. If this is in the past, the Past Perfect Tense will be used.

 

[andye]

Thanks. I had missed it with the difference in nomenclature. Makes sense now

 

[sergeyvzn]

Thanks. I had missed it with the difference in nomenclature. Makes sense now

oh good

plus quam perfectum (tempus) in Latin means "more than perfect". The Latin "perfect" refers to something that occurred in the past, while the pluperfect refers to something that occurred "more" (further) in the past than the perfect.

 

[JessicaTam]

We so need a like button for this thread right now!

 

[JohnM]

We so need a like button for this thread right now!

Indeed! It's fascinating.

 

[Julesmac]

The whole subject is making me tense

 

[JessicaTam]

The whole subject is making me tense

Don't worry. That should pass, presently.

 

[cove]

Anyone going out this weekend to correct the grammar on real estate signs?

 

[SeatBackForward]

This thread should be renamed grammar-rama.

 

[Warks]

My pedant alert went off when reading this story yesterday:

Why Qantas shares will always struggle for altitude

It's even relevant to this forum. Spot the obvious mistake first:

In little more than a year the Qantas share price (ASX: QAN) has almost trippled.

Then this:

There are two things to remember as you look wistfully at a potential 300 per cent gain that you missed out on, wondering whether it's too late to climb board.

Now I didn't major in mathematics at uni but by my calculations tripling (or trippling in this case) means a 200% gain - doubling is a 100% gain. Maybe trippling means something else.

 

[medhead]

My pedant alert went off when reading this story yesterday:

Why Qantas shares will always struggle for altitude

It's even relevant to this forum. Spot the obvious mistake first:



Then this:



Now I didn't major in mathematics at uni but by my calculations tripling (or trippling in this case) means a 200% gain - doubling is a 100% gain. Maybe trippling means something else.

A common mistake resulting from widespread numerical illiteracy.

Perhaps that should be innumeracy.

 

[medhead]

Not grammar but I love signs like this; I feel like writing "just turn it into a wall then?"

My other favourite is "this door may open outwards". No! It will open outwards. (It's in the nature of the door. The zen) But it may do so suddenly.

View attachment 43829

 

[anat0l]

A common mistake resulting from widespread numerical illiteracy.

Perhaps that should be innumeracy.

I'll take the second one. But that's because most people are only used to dealing with percentages from 0 to 100%.

Then of course, you need to be careful with... "Our July sales are 200% of that in the previous month."

I personally think that - if not for the sake of brevity or consistency in prose - stating an increase in terms of percentages over 100% is rarely productive. Once it gets to 1000% that's just silly. It would be better, in my opinion, to state the increase either in terms of an n-tuple qualifier (e.g. triple) or use a factor-phrase (e.g. "by a factor of 3" or "3 times higher").

Not grammar but I love signs like this; I feel like writing "just turn it into a wall then?"

My other favourite is "this door may open outwards". No! It will open outwards. (It's in the nature of the door. The zen) But it may do so suddenly.

For the first one, if it is a door which should never be opened (i.e. really should just be a wall), then I guess the sign fits, but then why was it a door in the first place (OK there may be reasons related to change of room function). If it is a door which should remain closed unless one wishes to go through it, then the sign should say, "Please keep this door closed when not in use". And given the sign is big enough, it probably wouldn't kill whoever wrote the sign to give a brief reason.

For the second one, it might be a door that swings both ways, i.e. inwards or outwards. It isn't common in an office environment, but still a silly sign anyway. However, more accurately stating your correction would be, "This door opens outwards".