GST'ing online purchases discussion

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Whilst we're at it, apart from eBay, anyone shop a lot online for electronic products?

DSE are doing portable HDDs at 720GB for $100. I assume they're not making any money on it, but does anyone know cheaper online (after taking into account shipping costs)?

I assume that as you get more expensive items, the differences become more pronounced (e.g. laptops, good cameras, mobile phones, etc.)


Ouch, if a 500Gb will do try $58

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Data-Storage/Pocket-Hard-Drives/WDBR0500BK

$98 for a 1 TB not so portable

Officeworks | Office Supplies, Office Furniture, Stationery, Ink & Toner at the lowest prices
 
Simple request.

Give us your favourite overseas online stores and what have you bought and saved compared to buying here.

I thought I was doing well on the Lonely Planet online shop which is based in Melbourne. I buy from them often and would never buy in a store again. Great value really.

I really wanna know!

Mrs RB has been buying contact lenses from quicklens singapore. Tells me they end up less than half price after postage is included. Take about 2 weeks to arrive.
 
1. Try returning faulty goods to an overseas seller. No much chance of success there in most cases.

2. Yes, the local retailers could drop prices if they went to a warehouse+online model as with many of the overseas sellers. Who then will provide the on floor stock for customers to evaluate? One of their complaints is the number of people who use this facility only to then buy from overseas.

For the vast bulk of the population, it's the convenience and immediacy that counts. There are businesses and jobs here that are at stake, but I guess that if it's not your business, that's OK.
 
There are businesses and jobs here that are at stake, but I guess that if it's not your business, that's OK.

Selfishly, its not my concern really. I totally understand that there may be businesses and jobs at stake but at the end of the day, I will not feel guilty that I do not support inefficient and/or uncompetitive business practices.

Just to pull a comment from a thread off FT, a poster writes somewhat cynically in a similar type thread:

I also feel bad when fast food staff don't get shifts, so I buy food that I don't want/need, just to try to get them a little extra. I let my car idle to keep a gas jockey busy. It's all part of my contribution to society.

I feel awful when a housekeeper doesn't get paid to clean my room. To make up for it, I use the points for a free night. Then all the staff get paid for my extra use of a hotel room.
 
For the vast bulk of the population, it's the convenience and immediacy that counts.

Which is why I think face-to-face retail still has a market. Those who decide to utilise this avenue will pay a premium for the service (not to be confused with "premium service", for all you sharp-shooting sniper cynics out there - you know who you are...)

Obviously the retailers are complaining because they see this market decreasing and the one eating up the share is online stores. I'm not sure how much ground they've lost, but I can't see it as overwhelmingly substantial. So I see the retailers more complaining either (a) as what they believe is an "emerging" threat (false or not), and/or (b) because they are taking the "glass is partly empty" approach.

1. Try returning faulty goods to an overseas seller. No much chance of success there in most cases.

A definite risk taken there, although some items, e.g. Apple products (probably not a good example per se) should be returnable / serviceable any where. (In saying this, with say Apple products, you would need to arrange shipping/postage to Apple for service after calling them up, cf. bringing your item to the store and they will arrange it for you).

Funny enough, we haven't heard too many stories of online retailers being slammed by customers (usually naive ones for that matter) who have either received wrong/faulty goods or trying to arrange warranty and have been burned. Either that or it hasn't reached mainstream media yet.

2. Yes, the local retailers could drop prices if they went to a warehouse+online model as with many of the overseas sellers. Who then will provide the on floor stock for customers to evaluate? One of their complaints is the number of people who use this facility only to then buy from overseas.

This problem has been around for a long time; if it isn't that the customer is not going to take their business overseas or online, then it's basically to the other electronics shop down the road that may not provide the same level of service but has the goods at a cheaper price. Or maybe even not.

My Dad used to get a quote on an item from one retailer, bring it to the next and get another quote, bring that one to the next retailer and so on, basically creating a small chain of "price matches" or "beats". I'll let you decide on the ethics of that.

Hey, there's a thought. Online stores effectively cease the whole concept of "price matching", since it's hard to set up a "haggling" system online. (Or maybe it'll just be a bit of time before it happens...)

There are businesses and jobs here that are at stake, but I guess that if it's not your business, that's OK.

Of course not. Are we supposed to feel sorry for the sector? Good grief, no. This is all part of business evolution, and if a company is not resilient to change then it'll die (just like the theory of biological evolution).

Mainstream personal computers made typing pool workers redundant, along with stock market chalk board writers. Did we feel sorry for them? I don't think so.

ATM machines and online banking effectively signed off the redundancy papers of hundreds of tellers. Did we feel sorry for them? Briefly, perhaps, but that was soon all forgotten especially when the shareholders didn't mind endorsing the actions of writing off a plethora of staff to get increased dividends.

But in the end, face-to-face retail still has its place in the world, because some people either prefer to do business that way, or want goods right now, or need the extra bit of guidance in making a selection (that you can't get through an online experience), or will pay extra for that little bit more care (hard to get good service, but when it is good it is good).
 
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Obviously the retailers are complaining because they see this market decreasing and the one eating up the share is online stores. I'm not sure how much ground they've lost, but I can't see it as overwhelmingly substantial. ...
The biggest increases in overseas purchase volume would be most likely relate to those types of product where the price difference is substantial enough to have many prospective customers consider issues such as delivery time and defect rectification risk worth enduring.

Following on from that it is conceivable that most of these type of product would be characterised as having the biggest mark-ups. Retailers in Oz selling these type of product should generally be making the greater profits.

Hence, it would be these Oz sellers complaining the most.
 
The biggest increases in overseas purchase volume would be most likely relate to those types of product where the price difference is substantial enough to have many prospective customers consider issues such as delivery time and defect rectification risk worth enduring.

Following on from that it is conceivable that most of these type of product would be characterised as having the biggest mark-ups. Retailers in Oz selling these type of product should generally be making the greater profits.

Hence, it would be these Oz sellers complaining the most.

Yep. Shoes, clothing, jewellery, books, sporting goods, electrical gear etc all fit well into this criteria.

And for all those saying "We need to protect our retailers" - No we don't. This is a well worn argument that keeps getting repeated all the time. If they can't compete with other competition then they don't deserve to be spoonfed. Instead they need to work out what they are doing wrong, and work out how to stand out. It's how certain small bookshops survived when the big chains came along, it's how certain video stores survived when DVDs became so cheap, it's how certain fruit shops survive right next to a Coles that tries to undercut them etc etc etc.
 
Not bought online. I had my ipod stolen from my unlocked luggage in a hotel in Europe. Replacement price in Australia is $329. Tax free at SYD $299. I bought one from Apple HK for $241 AUD according to my cc statement. And the service was polite and helpful.

I wasn't even asked to pay for extended warranty like I am every time I buy anything here. Another good earner for the Australian retailer.

10% GST causing consumers to shop overseas. Pfft!! What a weak excuse for the asking price of the overpriced goods on the market here.
 
A factor-oid that I think I read in the AFR is that internet sales represent only about 5% of the retailers sales. So this campaign is an indication of how much they are hurting, since the are pushing so hard over such a small erosion of margin.

I agree that some people importing lots of sub-$1000 shipments probably needs to be dealt with, but I thing the current GST laws already cover this.

Finally, I would just recount an experience that I had with Apple. Ordered some Apple gear online with the plan to take O/S and claim back the GST. The items were put on back order and shipped separately direct from China and then resulted in 2 invoices once of which was sub the GST refund cut off. I had a big argument with Apple to get a consolidated invoice issued. They finally capitulated when I raised the GST issue, looking into the legislation and confirmed by Customs; because Apple had shipped the products directly to me from China my products were actually GST exempt. Apple had incorrectly charged me GST that they technically didn't have to pay as tax. I hit them with this and asked about the the apparent incorrect collection of GST. Consolidated tax invoice was issued the next day. I did care to follow the matter up and I'm sure Apple are correctly paying their GST. But it seems to me that is a big potential loophole and the retailers might be better concerned with worrying about any potentially dodgy retailers who might be pretending to collect GST on imports.

If Apple are importing goods they may not be paying the GST once the goods arrive into the country, but it catches up with them once they prepare the BAS and pay the ATO. Apple are charging you for the GST then Apple will eventually be sending your part of the GST to the ATO. If the goods arrived into the country and then Apple was paying the GST once the goods landed then this GST they paid on import can be used as a GST credit for when they do their BAS.

Example $500 goods arrive into the country GST free.
Charge you $700 + $70 GST,
When preparing the BAS $70 goes to the ATO, paid on the 21st the month after.

Example $1000 goods arrive into the country, 2 lots of $500.00, $100 goes to the ATO on customs entry.
Charge you $700 + $70 GST.
When preparing the BAS You got $30 from the ATO if you don't sell the other $500.00 item for $700.00,
if both products were sold for $1,400 then you send $40 to the ATO, you paid $100 when the goods arrived and the difference is $40.00

1. Try returning faulty goods to an overseas seller. No much chance of success there in most cases.

2. Yes, the local retailers could drop prices if they went to a warehouse+online model as with many of the overseas sellers. Who then will provide the on floor stock for customers to evaluate? One of their complaints is the number of people who use this facility only to then buy from overseas.

For the vast bulk of the population, it's the convenience and immediacy that counts. There are businesses and jobs here that are at stake, but I guess that if it's not your business, that's OK.

The $1,000 minimum for imposing GST is only part of the problem.

There was an interesting discussion a few weeks ago. http://www.australianfrequentflyer..../is-australia-an-expensive-country-26523.html.

Australian wages are higher compared to other countries, its not just the cost of the people that I employ but also for any other Australian company we deal with is also high.

There is also a hidden cost, once the goods are imported over $1,000 then then a customs entry needs to be prepared, if its a simple entry that Fedex can handle it is $55.20 per shipment.

Another problem is that the Australian market for a lot of items is 15 times smaller than the US market. US mass merchants can work on a smaller margin as their volume is 15 times greater.

One of part is the expense to get an item into Australia.The cost to freight a box of items in can be expensive, but there are lot of add in costs, Customs entry, Airline terminal fees, or port fee(if seafreight) there isn't a huge market to spread some of these costs over.

You can buy some equipment out of the US and the of freight is almost the same if I had to buy it out of Perth. Some of your bigger US merchants have good rates with shippers like Fedex, who can ship a 5kg package to Australia for $22.00 USD. For us to send a 5kg parcel to Perth via Australian Air Express is $17.49 + GST plus the security fee,(2%) fuel surcharge(3%) plus the account keeping fee.($6.95) I am sending about 20 items a week($0.34 a shipment)

The Australian dollar keeps moving against all other currencies. In June our dollar was trading around $0.85 USD and today we are trading at $0.99. Equipment I brought in June I had to pay for already and is still at $0.85. There is always a fine line trying to work out what stock is going to sell.

Channel 9 ACA and I think Channel 7 TT both aired news stories about how cheap it was to buy equipment from overseas. Get it cheaper and not pay the GST. Companies like Harvey Norman spend quite a bit of money promoting their company and the products they sell on Australian TV. Suddenly they are telling consumers go overseas and it is companies like Harvey Norman and others pay to advertise on these channels.

5% was quoted as the amount of market that is being lost to buying goods overseas, but I remember reading it was only about 2%. But if you loose 2% of your market that can mean the difference between profit & loss.

For some industries there is going to be a big shift in the way some things are sold. The Apple Ipad is going to kill a lot of book and magazine resellers, as it cuts out a lot of handling and selling costs. A lot of other products will become more plug and play. If you need help to connect it you will need to pay some one, to fit it for you, it will be much harder just to ring the supplier to ask them for assistance.

Just a few of my observations.
 
Obviously the retailers are complaining because they see this market decreasing and the one eating up the share is online stores. I'm not sure how much ground they've lost, but I can't see it as overwhelmingly substantial.

Around 5% was mentioned in either the Australian or the AFR that I read last week.

If Apple are importing goods they may not be paying the GST once the goods arrive into the country, but it catches up with them once they prepare the BAS and pay the ATO. Apple are charging you for the GST then Apple will eventually be sending your part of the GST to the ATO. If the goods arrived into the country and then Apple was paying the GST once the goods landed then this GST they paid on import can be used as a GST credit for when they do their BAS.

Example $500 goods arrive into the country GST free.
Charge you $700 + $70 GST,
When preparing the BAS $70 goes to the ATO, paid on the 21st the month after.

Example $1000 goods arrive into the country, 2 lots of $500.00, $100 goes to the ATO on customs entry.
Charge you $700 + $70 GST.
When preparing the BAS You got $30 from the ATO if you don't sell the other $500.00 item for $700.00,
if both products were sold for $1,400 then you send $40 to the ATO, you paid $100 when the goods arrived and the difference is $40.00

Thats the normal situation as per your examples. However in m situation with apple they items weren't in stock in Australia. The items were sent directly to me from overseas somewhere. According to the information I found at the time (3 years ago) the package being addressed to me make me the importer and hence makes me liable (or not) for paying GST on import. This was not changed by ordering with an Australian based organisation online. So a sub-$1000 package is GST exempt and as the importer I was not liable to pay the tax and apple was not liable as they didn't import the goods.

I fully acknowledge that this is a unique situation that apple probably can't predetermine and I'm sure they do pay in the GST collected when preparing the BAS.
 
1. Try returning faulty goods to an overseas seller. No much chance of success there in most cases.

I've bought a heap of stuff from Amazon over the last few years, and they are absolutely fantastic about returns. I bought a DVD box set where one disc was damaged and wouldn't play - they replaced it no questions asked and didn't even make me send back the damaged disc.

Recently my Kindle screen cracked, and they were superb about that too - they have a customer service line that you email to ask them to call you -they call back within a minute, they organised a postage refund plus a bonus good will refund, and had a new Kindle to me within a week.

For the vast bulk of the population, it's the convenience and immediacy that counts. There are businesses and jobs here that are at stake, but I guess that if it's not your business, that's OK.

The reality is the world is increasingly globalised, if we can't compete in retail the answer is not propping up an uncompetitive industry and making Australians pay vastly more for goods than people in other countries do, it's making sure we do have other, highly-skilled competitive industries that support Australian jobs and our economy. Or are you advocating a return to the bad old days of tarrifs and protectionism?

In which case, why not go all the way back and insist the TVs Harvey Norman sells are made here, to protect Aussie jobs?
 
I suppose something we need to realise with the loss of GST is that there's less money to pay for schools, hospitals, roads, pretty much the things that state Governments try to fund from the pool of GST money.

I can't really see any cost effective way to lower the level of import that is GST free.

I can't really remember the last time i went into a shop to buy something. I pretty much buy everything on ebay or other online stores.

I've been using Free shipping worldwide on all books from to buy books for ages. they beat amazon in price when shipping is taken into account.

I get most of my medical needs from ePharmacy as they have stuff way cheaper than most chemists, esp the non PBS scripts i get filled.

Possibly retail is in for a period of consolidation. Maybe more will move online to increase sales per sqm of rented space and staff. It's how economies work. Some parts contract to allow the expansion of others.

Now if we could stop funneling billions into our sub scale car industry we'd all be much better off.
 
Possibly retail is in for a period of consolidation. Maybe more will move online to increase sales per sqm of rented space and staff. It's how economies work. Some parts contract to allow the expansion of others.

Totally agree on this point. Alot of the older type businesses (read Harvey Norman again) are failing to react to the needs of consumers and develop any business plan or direction for an online section to their business. Once upon a time eBay sellers were just online sellers, now some of the bigger sellers have shopfronts for online consumers to pick up their goods, and not only can they pick up their goods quickly, they can also offer after purchase warranty and service.
 
Now if we could stop funneling billions into our sub scale car industry we'd all be much better off.

The way the worldwide car industry works it is just not possible to claim that the Australian industry is sub-scale. Basically all mass produced cars are based on a common foundation - sorry i don't know the proper name for this - the underlying structure is the same and they just bolt of a body shell for the various models around the world. IIRC Holden Australia actually designed one of these foundation thingys, and the commondore and some US pontaic thing and european vauxhalls are all based on this but with a different body. Same same for the VW and i guess with ford. etc.
 
Whilst we're at it, apart from eBay, anyone shop a lot online for electronic products?
I purchased 1 item from eBay ~6 years ago and it turned to be a lemon. Took it back 5-6 times for repairs and then stopped using it. I try to avoid eBay for any purchase.

I also try to avoid purchasing electrical goods online although the last purchase was a laptop through Lenovo which in hindsight was a mistake. Ideally I want to see what the product looks like before purchasing.

I would rather pay a few dollars more and see what I am buying than blindly order something from eBay or overseas online stores.
 
The way the worldwide car industry works it is just not possible to claim that the Australian industry is sub-scale. Basically all mass produced cars are based on a common foundation - sorry i don't know the proper name for this - the underlying structure is the same and they just bolt of a body shell for the various models around the world. IIRC Holden Australia actually designed one of these foundation thingys, and the commondore and some US pontaic thing and european vauxhalls are all based on this but with a different body. Same same for the VW and i guess with ford. etc.

I suppose what I mean is our sub scale car manufacturing. A lot of the guys in the car factories have skills that could generate a far higher national return in other industries, especially the mining and construction sectors.

between 1993 and 2000 $13 billion was pumped into the local car industry, 2000-2008 was around a billion a year from the fed and state governments, and there's another $6.2 billion in the coming decade.

Seems we've been doubling down for years on the auto industry with not much to show for it.

Anyways, I digress from the main point of this post :mrgreen:
 
I purchased 1 item from eBay ~6 years ago and it turned to be a lemon. Took it back 5-6 times for repairs and then stopped using it. I try to avoid eBay for any purchase.

I also try to avoid purchasing electrical goods online although the last purchase was a laptop through Lenovo which in hindsight was a mistake. Ideally I want to see what the product looks like before purchasing.

I would rather pay a few dollars more and see what I am buying than blindly order something from eBay or overseas online stores.

Besides a dodgy USB memory stick, I've bought probably over 200 items from ebay in the last 7 years and it's all been fine.

I've bought a number of laptops online without a hitch.

I got some Sennheiser HD238 headphones on ebay for $80 when they sell for 150-200, but in the USA they're around $60-70 (and no the headphones didn't come from China)

I would say things are tougher on ebay these days with the amount of fake electronics. You do need to be a bit sensible, and I am wary of buying a lot of stuff from sellers in China.

The fake sellers are getting quite sneaky these days. When i was looking to buy my Galaxy S i saw an auction in Australia and did a buy it now to only have a request asking me to transfer the funds via western union. advised ebay and then bought another one from a german seller, only to get the exact same email from a slightly diff hotmail account.

i really think stores in australia need to from Neman Marcus in the USA - they pay their staff higher than average retail wages, yet generate higher sales per sqm and have very high customer satisfaction.

It's a bit like Djs here. I like shopping there because I can always get help from someone, and they generally seem happy Go into myers and the staff seem to avoid you and never seem to smile.
 
Go into myers and the staff seem to avoid you and never seem to smile.

Oh some of them do smile, like the young (mostly good looking) ladies (read: most situated in the perfumery). Will they help you; yeah, mostly not...... (doesn't help when they are gossiping away with their colleagues)
 
I purchased 1 item from eBay ~6 years ago and it turned to be a lemon. Took it back 5-6 times for repairs and then stopped using it. I try to avoid eBay for any purchase.

I also try to avoid purchasing electrical goods online although the last purchase was a laptop through Lenovo which in hindsight was a mistake. Ideally I want to see what the product looks like before purchasing.

I would rather pay a few dollars more and see what I am buying than blindly order something from eBay or overseas online stores.


I think it is rather sad to hang onto a 6 yr old experience for justification. Also many people would have delved into keyboard layouts before buying a laptop.

Sorry John but I think your examples show how some people have moved as buyers the same as retailers need to move. If you still feel the urge to buy face to face be prepared to pay for the experience. The few dollars more you are talking is often a big %
 
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