Is Sydney Really This Bad? [Lockout Laws]

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Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

The headline looks like click bait to me. Check that bit of your definition about using sensationalist headlines to get clicks. Hence I don't click. Don't pass the headline test, the article becomes irrelevant. BTW I've seen this shared on a number of social media channels, that bit about encouraging forwarding.

Nice that you don't see it that way. But I do.
By your definition, everything of any interest can be considered click bait. Wheras the definition from Wikipedia relates specifically to trying to earn advertising revenue, which isn't the case in the article.

Your position where you just keep repeating that it seems like clickbait to you is nonsensical - either it is or it isn't.
You are welcome to click on it and see, and then come and tell me so.

But I don't like aspersions cast on the writer of the article, and in effect also on me for having linked to it, on a Forum where discussion of travel locations is quite appropriate. Especially when it is a totally unsupported aspersion based on wilful ignorance.
Regards,
Renato
 
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Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Well not all is well researched:

If the Government was truly interested in your safety and not purely on a moralistic crusade, there are plenty of other things that are more dangerous to your health. Did you know that on average an Australian dies every three days in Thailand? You are far more likely to die falling over, out of bed or off a ladderthan in anywhere near a licensed venue in Sydney.

Reading that one might question the safety of international travel. I clicked his link through to only discover that most of the international deaths were just tourists dying of natural causes!

“The number of people coming through Bangkok and Thai holiday spots is very high. And of course, people go to Thailand to retire,” he said.
Overall, Mr Brown said, “The causes of death vary but are similar to those in Australia. Most result from natural causes.”

If you have a lot of people overseas then just like at home they are going to die.

So basically his link of what he was asserting. Perhaps he just read the headline: [h=1]World’s deadliest holiday destinations for Australian tourists[/h]
So hardly ammunation to back up "there are plenty of other things that are more dangerous to your health."

 
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Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

By your definition, everything of any interest can be considered click bait. Wheras the definition from Wikipedia relates specifically to trying to earn advertising revenue, which isn't the case in the article.

I haven't given any definition. I've given my reason for not reading it. I don't care if you accept my reason or not. But there is no reason to attack me. There's the thing, my experiences in Sydney disagree with the sensational headline. That allows me to conclude the headline is designed to attract people to the author's linkedin account. The wikipedia definition is of limited use if it contends revenue is the only reason to create clickbait.

As for discussing travel destinations. I notice you've totally ignored all the information that I provided in my post about the travel destination and instead have decided to harangue me over the choices I make wrt my internet presence and security. Is that because the experiences that I posted disagree with the headline of the opinion piece?
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Some other points of ponder.

Let's consider the "lost economy" of the lockout laws that opinions like the OP allude to. These can be loosely grouped into: (a) lost business revenues, (b) lost jobs, and (c) lost economic spend via less customers.

For (c), so some people may go out less because of the lockout laws. What do they do with the money which they are now not spending? Do they save it? Or do they simply spend it somewhere else? If the answer is the latter, then that component of the "lost economy" is not necessarily, well, lost. People who want a good night out will find a way to do it and spend more or less the same amount of money to do so.

For (a) and (b), I think it is quite conceivable to presume that many of the supporters of the lockout laws - or indeed any means possible to reduce the alcohol related violence and general malaise - do not care about the effects on closing businesses or staff who lost their jobs. In fact, there is probably a good reason to believe that many of those supporters blame the existence of such establishments for the uprising and culturing of the adverse alcohol-fuelled culture, so to their minds, those businesses and their staff are rightfully forfeit for the better. On a more general level of presumption, I would harbour a guess that any supporter, from single voter to politician, did not think about nor consider any such "collateral" damage, as the overarching sentiment of reducing alcohol-induced violence, crime and hospital incidents was far more important to consider, i.e. an "whatever it takes" / "any means possible" approach. Of course, it is surprising in some ways that such parties did not then consider more stringent measures that would probably also achieve the same goal, albeit with further limits on liberties, but far easier to implement. For example, firm blanket closing times (10pm, 12am, whatever), heavier restrictions of liquor licences, mandatory detention of drunken belligerents or those who commit assault causing injury / death, etc.

As for the "lost economy" overall, that side hasn't considered the possible economic savings due to less pressure on the support services and others. For example, with less incidents ending up in hospital, there is an overall lessening of pressure on the hospital system, that saves physical resources, improves availability of services for people who are more deserving of that attention, lessens stress on medical staff (leading to better staff productivity and less turnover and stress-induced leave etc.). A similar argument might be put together on the policing resources. The space which is vacated by closed down restaurants and clubs may be taken up by some other business, not necessarily late night entertainment related, but a tenant nonetheless. The new businesses which take those often valuable positions and the staff they bring along with it, combined with new customers, offsets all three components I alluded to. Now I'm not sure to what extent the savings pay off the losses, but it's a point nonetheless, plus that's still combined with the (c) component that people might still spend their money but just somewhere else.

People say this kind of culture renders Sydney a global laughing stock. Except for a few noted comments here or there, I haven't seen too many articles actually mocking Sydney about this kind of "counter-culture". Some may even note that if you were to query the origin of some of the critics, those cities might be considerably more dangerous than Sydney, so "you don't have a leg to stand on making that criticism".

As counter note, there have been reports that lockouts have reduced the number of incidents (by about half, a considerable amount). However, they haven't eliminated the number of incidents. What does this mean from here? Are lockouts the beginning, or are things much better that they can be left as is now? Does this mean lockouts don't actually work, because even if the problems have reduced, they haven't been eliminated? If another person dies due to an alcohol related incident, does this mean lockouts are ineffective, are not stringent enough, or a new / additional strategy is required?
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Well not all is well researched:

If the Government was truly interested in your safety and not purely on a moralistic crusade, there are plenty of other things that are more dangerous to your health. Did you know that on average an Australian dies every three days in Thailand? You are far more likely to die falling over, out of bed or off a ladderthan in anywhere near a licensed venue in Sydney.

Reading that one might question the safety of international travel. I clicked his link through to only discover that most of the international deaths were just tourists dying of natural causes!

“The number of people coming through Bangkok and Thai holiday spots is very high. And of course, people go to Thailand to retire,” he said.
Overall, Mr Brown said, “The causes of death vary but are similar to those in Australia. Most result from natural causes.”

If you have a lot of people overseas then just like at home they are going to die.

So basically his link of what he was asserting. Perhaps he just read the headline: World’s deadliest holiday destinations for Australian tourists

So hardly ammunation to back up "there are plenty of other things that are more dangerous to your health."

From the article sourced:

Thailand tops the list of deadly destinations, with 120 fatalities – nearly double the next highest locations, Indonesia and Vietnam

From 2006-2011 more than half died from illness and accidents:

Figures released by the Department of Foreign Affairs for the period 2006 to 2011 show 430 Australian citizens died in the popular tourist destination.Of those, 163 died of illness, 69 in accidents, and 66 of natural causes, while the cause of death was unknown or unlisted in 132 cases.

Thailand tops Australian death list - 9news.com.au

And

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade says 904 Australians died overseas in 2012.
...
And the deadliest place for Aussie travellers was – you guessed it - Thailand with 111 deaths.

https://www.travelinsurancedirect.com.au/is-thailand-safe

And

In 2014-15, 146 Australians died in Thailand and 163 were hospitalised. Bali had the second highest number of deaths with 87 and 124 hospitalisations.

Tragic end to holidays for two Australian tourists in southeast Asia, including Melbourne nurse

It seems relatively dangerous to me... and a fair argument to make.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

It seems relatively dangerous to me... and a fair argument to make.


I think you missed my point entirely. Which was that his link provided information that was the opposite of his claim.

Maybe he should have used your references and not the one he did???


However even those do not actually examine the death/ injury rate in a statistically meaninful way as per the disclaimer in one of your links: Please note - the statistics released under this FOI are in relation to total numbers of Australian deaths overseas and no comparison is made with the amount of travellers who visit each country every year.
Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...ops-australian-death-list#sTY3jOm1DLQJdMte.99
 
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Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

From the article sourced:



From 2006-2011 more than half died from illness and accidents:



And



And



It seems relatively dangerous to me... and a fair argument to make.

And 7000+ hospital personnel were assaulted in Adelaide alone in 2014-link already given.at least half by people affected by drugs or alcohol.
So Thailand is much safer than going to Adelaide?
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Excessive pre-drinking, an Australian attitude problem, nightclub owners charging too much for drinks and complex red tape including liquor licencing laws are all part of this issue. The drinking culture in Australia needs correcting.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

The drinking culture in Australia needs correcting.

Now how do we do that?

We're a culture that doesn't seem to know much shame. I mean, someone tells you the right thing to do and we're brought up to tell that person to mind their own <expletive> business. We were taught that's what you do from a young age, apart from other things, like dobbers wear nappies, etc... I think we are the country that coined the phrase, "Have a spoonful of concrete in your cuppa".......

Of course, the older generation (usually occupying positions of power in parliament and of localised influence, as well as parents) say they had no such issues in their days, so where did the current generation who are to blame for cultivating this culture get this whole wrong idea? Did the older generation cause it (accidentally or otherwise)? Is it an international influence?
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Maybe because alcohol consumption is increasing in Australia and much more so in younger age groups-
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2015/203/3/making-sense-alcohol-consumption-data-australia

The graphs are astounding-
mja15.00151-10.5694mja15.00151_GR1.jpg


mja15.00151-10.5694mja15.00151_GR2.jpg
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

I haven't given any definition. I've given my reason for not reading it. I don't care if you accept my reason or not. But there is no reason to attack me. There's the thing, my experiences in Sydney disagree with the sensational headline. That allows me to conclude the headline is designed to attract people to the author's linkedin account. The wikipedia definition is of limited use if it contends revenue is the only reason to create clickbait.

From Meriam Webster Dictionary on-line.
Definition of clickbait

plural click·baits


:
something (such as a headline) designed to make readers want to click on a hyperlink especially when the link leads to content of dubious value or interest <It is difficult to remember a time when you could scroll through the social media outlet of your choice and not be bombarded with: You'll never believe what happened when … This is the cutest thing ever … This is the biggest mistake you can make … Take this quiz to see which character you are on … They are all classic clickbait models. And they are irritating as hell. There's no singular way to craft clickbait, but the essence is clear: Lure—no trick—readers to your site. — Emily Shire, Daily Beast, 14 July 2014> < … “clickbait,” those seductive Huffington Post-esque headlines that suck up your attention but don't deliver what they promise? — Oliver Burkeman, The Guardian (London), 10 Aug. 2013> < … there's an incentive to combine

You haven't addressed why the chap's essay, statistics and photographs are of dubious value and don't deliver what they promise - because you haven't read it. You claim to have six year's expperience day and night in the affected areas, so that you would be in a perfect position to be able to refute the article writer's central claims, and refute all the respondents on this thread who agree with the writer's proposition that night life has been severely diminished in Sydney - but you can't do it, because you haven't read it.
Regards,
Renato
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Definition of clickbait

Who cares about the definition? He doesn't want to read it, he won't read it, and short of you going up to him with a gun against his head threatening to end his life, you can't make him. That riff-raff hardly contributes to the issue at hand.

So he'll argue his side without the merits or lack thereof of having read the article. The thread has evolved a lot from taking a side on the article to more the broader issues arising from it. Plus, the article is hardly the first one on the matter for that side, albeit in my experience it is likely the most organised argument from that side I have seen to date.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Maybe because alcohol consumption is increasing in Australia and much more so in younger age groups-
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2015/203/3/making-sense-alcohol-consumption-data-australia

Interesting, when viewing official ABS statistics it's at a 50 year low (and still decreasing). Though it's true that younger age groups drink more.

4307.0.55.001 - Apparent Consumption of Alcohol, Australia

And 7000+ hospital personnel were assaulted in Adelaide alone in 2014-link already given.at least half by people affected by drugs or alcohol.
So Thailand is much safer than going to Adelaide?

I'm confused by your question.. Even though that may be true doesn't mean Thailand is safer, it also doesn't mean that the assaults aren't a problem.

Thailand has much more crime in general compared to Australia.

I'm just generally against prohibition and civilian curfews, especially if they're not consistently applied.
 
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Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Your ABS figures are for the whole population and have been skewed because of demographic changes.
The article quoted is from ABS figures and is for the alcohol consumption of drinkers-non drinkers excluded.So those who drink,ie those who would go to clubs,are drinking more.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Maybe because alcohol consumption is increasing in Australia and much more so in younger age groups-
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2015/203/3/making-sense-alcohol-consumption-data-australia

The graphs are astounding-
mja15.00151-10.5694mja15.00151_GR1.jpg


mja15.00151-10.5694mja15.00151_GR2.jpg

Wasn't there a report which said the serious drinkers were drinking more and the rest less which was why the figures were growing still?

Similar to gambling figures where Australians spend some ridiculous annual amount but then it's only about 20% of the population that gamble at all (or more than a minor flutter) so the number is that much higher for those who do gamble.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

People say this kind of culture renders Sydney a global laughing stock.

Not me. Is Singapore a global laughing stock because I can't buy a beer in the 711 after 10:30 pm? Is Dubai a global laughing stock because I can't slug tinnies sitting on the beach? Is London a global laughing stock because most tubes stop at 12:30 am? (and I was stuck in Shoreditch just last Saturday morning so cursing this one myself). Is Palmerston North a global..., ahhh you get the idea.
 
Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Wasn't there a report which said the serious drinkers were drinking more and the rest less which was why the figures were growing still?

Similar to gambling figures where Australians spend some ridiculous annual amount but then it's only about 20% of the population that gamble at all (or more than a minor flutter) so the number is that much higher for those who do gamble.

The problem with alcohol is that only 9% of those over 18 claimed to never had a drink.60% were regular consumers.For 15-19 year olds the figures are 21% and 41%.It worries me that 41% of 15-19 year olds are averaging >7 standard drinks per day.
 
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