Losing QFF points and calling in the media

[rock86]

Only that I asked a question and you responded to me but didn't answer, so only can assume you either you didn't have a loss of points or they are of no value.

I never had Ansett points, not quite old enough back then. The point still stands though.

They may not be compensable to a member in the event of a QF failure (from memory this hasn't ever actually been tested); they are however of significant value to QF and it's shareholders. The issuance of QFF points to external suppliers and for flights sold by QF, is commensurate to how much revenue & profit QF loyalty generates. This in turn is attributable to the value placed on a QF share and what level of dividend can be paid out.

So in summary, QFF points certainly have a tangible value, where QF shareholders reap the benefit of it.

 

[JohnK]

Me? If I really thought the writing was on the wall I'd prob use 190k points of say EK F to europe or something like that. I am sure many others reading would use 190k points on different things that they consider of value.. for example I imagine JohnK would use those points on redemptions in Y to BKK.

All different "value" propoisitions but also very subjective

Of course this is a major tangent to the thread, so.. sorry about that

Personally I'd like to use the points to go somewhere I need to go not somewhere that would be nice to go. The cabin of travel is not important enough.

Unfortunately Qantas fuel surcharges are still ridiculously high.

 

[RichardMEL]

Personally I'd like to use the points to go somewhere I need to go not somewhere that would be nice to go. The cabin of travel is not important enough.

*proud face*

nailed it

 

[oz_mark]

I accept the "cannot be converted to cash' but please reference the no monetary value part?

Again, and I can't stress this enough, internal to QF Loyalty points absolutely have a dollar (well cent, or fraction thereof ) value.

And remember, when one redeems an award, specially for something like a toaster or a gift cart, in some sense it *is* a conversion to cash.. or at least the monetary value of that product, as sold to QF Loyalty by the vendor.

Now none of that is transparent to the customer, and it's true I can't say to QF I'd like to convert my 1 million QF points to $2.50, but that doesn't mean they do not have a value to QF.

I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp

For programs that define a monetary value (such as FlyBuys), they may well do that. For other programs it's more nuanced.

Frequent Flyer Points basically represent a promise from the program that they will provide you some goods or services in exchange for your points. Those Goods or Services definitely have a monetary value.

And at the end of the day, programs need to provision for how much providing those goods and services will be. The Point Value is part of that, but so are other terms and conditions.

To highlight an example - in 2008 Alaska Airlines reduced its expiration period on miles from three years to two - and in doing so booked a profit of $42 million. The values of the points didn't really go down, but their liability for providing future services did.

The point is the liability on the books is a bit more complicated than just saying that points have a value. There's more to it.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Personally I'd like to use the points to go somewhere I need to go not somewhere that would be nice to go. The cabin of travel is not important enough.

Unfortunately Qantas fuel surcharges are still ridiculously high.

I know of a few Asian based programs which don't have the crazy surcharges. Lower miles requirements for redemptions, fewer taxes than both the AU programs and friendlier cabin crew too.

To add on other comments in this thread, the redemption value of a QFF point on the cash+points option is likely more reflective of the actual value of a QFF point. I'm willing to bet that Classic Award redemption rates represent no link to the true value of a QF point to QF.

Ultimately like any currency, they're only worth what you think it's worth. If you lose faith in the currency then the value diminishes.

 

[JessicaTam]

I know of a few Asian based programs which don't have the crazy surcharges. Lower miles requirements for redemptions, fewer taxes than both the AU programs and friendlier cabin crew too.

That's why I have multiple FF program memberships. Eggs/basket etc.

 

[cove]

Yes Jessica I have 4 programs and Mrscove is the same. I have several credit cards that warehouse points to avoid expiry.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I'm willing to bet that Classic Award redemption rates represent no link to the true value of a QF point to QF.

Yes, but isn't that a slightly different matter? Classic award seats are seats the airline doesn't think it can sell commercially. So it has preassigned a points level to those and at least gets some money for a seat that would otherwise go out empty. Plus of course the hefty fuel surcharge. But that redemption still drives loyalty and revenue in other areas because people have to accrue those points by using QF or oneworld flights, or through QF getting money by selling points to the banks.

Everywhere where Qantas actually sells an item, from toasters to anytime awards, the points value is fairly close to their notion assigned value of 0.007c.

 

[cove]

I think you need to move the figure quoted upwards. Points used for toasters and similar items generally value them at around half a cent or 0.7 cents of a retailers list price.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think you need to move the figure quoted upwards. Points used for toasters and similar items generally value them at around half a cent or 0.7 cents of a retailers list price.

doh! yes. i got called out on this before with my decimals. it’s .7 of a cent. they sell them for 1c, so a ~50% profit at redemption, plus their mark up on items like gift cards and toasters.

 

[RichardMEL]

The point is the liability on the books is a bit more complicated than just saying that points have a value. There's more to it.

Agree but it's simpler to say that which has a truth to it rather than those who suggest points have zero value which is absolutely untrue.

 

[JohnK]

I know of a few Asian based programs which don't have the crazy surcharges. Lower miles requirements for redemptions, fewer taxes than both the AU programs and friendlier cabin crew too.

Unfortunately they don't fly SYD-BNE.

And I'm not sure which is more important. Status or points.

 

[rock86]

The point is the liability on the books is a bit more complicated than just saying that points have a value. There's more to it.

There's definitely more to it, but the main factor of calculating the liability will be the assigned value in which the company believes a point is worth. Other factors of the liability, such as expected unused points (breakage) will be a little more complicated in assessing, but they wouldn't be too overly complex to calculate.

 

[serfty]

There's definitely more to it, but the main factor of calculating the liability will be the assigned value in which the company believes a point is worth. Other factors of the liability, such as expected unused points (breakage) will be a little more complicated in assessing, but they wouldn't be too overly complex to calculate.

except when breakage come in lower than expected ... hence many CC removing or reducing award points for ATO/utilities.

 

[amaroo]

Whatever works...

 

[drron]

Calling in AFF worked for us!

 

[cove]

Good thinking drron. AFFers do have lots of experiences so you are not alone when you have a problem.

 

[rock86]

except when breakage come in lower than expected ... hence many CC removing or reducing award points for ATO/utilities.

I'd argue this has nothing to do with their breakage estimates though, this would be due to the interbank fee cap on credit card transactions imposed by the RBA. Banks no longer have the option of recouping as much money for each transaction, hence less points per dollar spent on CC. And ATO/Utilities are a necessary payment for all Australians with a credit card, so it makes sense from a business perspective to offer less (or no) points per $ on that category of spend.

 

[serfty]

And ATO/Utilities are a necessary payment for all Australians with a credit card, so it makes sense from a business perspective to offer less (or no) points per $ on that category of spend ...

That basically proves my point. The more you have the easier they are to redeem and the less breakage happens.

The ATO earn elimination was occuring well before the recent CC legislative changes.

 

[rock86]

That basically proves my point. The more you have the easier they are to redeem and the less breakage happens.

The ATO earn elimination was occuring well before the recent CC legislative changes.

I don't disagree this could be a reason, but there's also many other factors to consider regarding the reduced reward earn on ATO/Utilities.