Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[burmans]

The same questioning would apply to any airline, that has been made clear. Asking questions is not anti-MH

It is anti-MH when you espouse not flying MH until "questions are answered" but you seem quite happy to fly other airlines who made the same decision.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It is anti-MH when you espouse not flying MH until "questions are answered" but you seem quite happy to fly other airlines who made the same decision.

i don't think I actually said. all the airlines flying over have some issues to consider. The investigation might show what was known and when.

 

[straitman]

The same questioning would apply to any airline, that has been made clear. Asking questions is not anti-MH

What is important however is asking appropriate and relevant questions. The spin you are taking with this is, as usual a full on query of aviation systems that you have no knowledge of and quite obviously have no intention of learning about. At the same time it is insulting to those who have perished and/or lost loved ones.

Agreed, and that's one of the questions I raised earlier. If BA was avoiding the country in total, what brought about that decision.

Once again I ask you to remember that this aircraft was obeying all the relevant rules and procedures and was actually only in that airspace as it was diverting around weather.

Every airline has different variations of all sorts of requirements from check lists, maintenance requirements, crew numbers, crew duty requirements to variations of the dangerous goods manual and on top of that the variations put in place by their respective regulatory authorities. It is so easy to criticise in retrospect but why not, if all these questions are so important, ask them proactively and of the appropriate people?

 

[medhead]

for the sake of the 300 innocents that have died, we should not excuse the issue of why the plane was there. I think an airline owes its passengers a duty of care, not excuses. Other airlines might have been flying the same route, but it was MH that got hit.

MH followed the established safety rules and requirements. FULL STOP. That is not changed because another airline did something different.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the airlines knew about the rebels having BUK missiles? Those are the only missiles that can remotely have a chance to hit an aircraft in cruise in that part of the world. Those missile have only been available to the rebels in the last few weeks, based on the now circulating speculation.

 

[burmans]

i don't think I actually said. all the airlines flying over have some issues to consider. The investigation might show what was known and when.

Since your memory seems to be going, let me refresh you as to what you said.

I think until we know why MH decided to fly the route they did, there is a good reason not to fly them.

 

[Shan Man]

I think the American representative to the UN security council has summed it up, for all you people who seem to think its MH's fault for not being safe enough. Things said to the affect of:

"MH17 was flying through an established flight corridor for commercial traffic"
"MH17 was flying through a frequently used route by other airlines"
"MH17 was transmitting the correct transponder code to show it was a commercial flight"
"MH17 was at 33,000ft and was obeying all civil aviation rules and regulations at the time"


Currently live on ABC24. Will post a script/Link if I can find one later.

 

[Brisbane Flyer]

Whether or not they knew rebels had the missiles is irrelevant. Plus my guess is the rebels would never alert people that they have the weapons, it is warfare after all.

The issue is whether or not the company wanted to absorb the extra costs to fly around the Ukraine. It appears MAS didn't want to have those costs. Tragedy nonetheless, lives lost because of rebels, very sad.

I have a ticket from BNE - BOM return for my wife that we are cancelling, trust in MAS is totally gone.

Cheers
BF

MH followed the established safety rules and requirements. FULL STOP. That is not changed because another airline did something different.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the airlines knew about the rebels having BUK missiles? Those are the only missiles that can remotely have a chance to hit an aircraft. Those missile have only been available to the rebels in the last few weeks, based on the now circulating speculation.

 

[kamchatsky]

Just got home and found out that two of the Brits on board were Newcastle United fans travelling to New Zealand for 2 pre-season matches being played over the next week or so.

Whilst I did not know either of them personally, one of the gentlemen was well known as 'The Undertaker' for always attending matches in his distinctive black suit and white shirt. I stood near John many times over the 10 years I travelled up and down England supporting the team and had exchanged many a glance and a nod (as you did when you often saw the same people who you didn't know but knew you were there for the same cause). Their dedication to following their beloved favourite sporting team to the other side of the world is truly breathtaking and it is shocking to think that they have been caught up in this tragedy and this has been their fate.

And this is not a time for anyone to enter into a debate about the current state of football and it's players. These gents were supporting the team with a 120 year history which they clearly loved very much.

John Alder killed in plane crash: Tributes have been paid to Malaysian Airlines victim and Newcastle United fan John Alder - Chronicle Live

I hope that there were no West Ham United fans making the same journey to New Zealand. Lots of EPL teams in Asia in the coming weeks so very possible.

RIP John
RIP Liam

As a fellow NUFC fan die hard tragic, RIP John and Liam. Loyal fan of NUFC who fly across the world to NZ to watch pre-season matches.

 

[kamchatsky]

MH followed the established safety rules and requirements. FULL STOP. That is not changed because another airline did something different.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the airlines knew about the rebels having BUK missiles? Those are the only missiles that can remotely have a chance to hit an aircraft in cruise in that part of the world. Those missile have only been available to the rebels in the last few weeks, based on the now circulating speculation.

If anything, the US/UK/NATO Intelligence should know about this already sometime back. If so, they should have advised all airliner about this and close off all airspace around that area earlier. If they knew it first hand but still let commercials fly over then they are just as accountable for these people's lives. Of course, we will never know if they actually knew this earlier as it would all be classified information.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Since your memory seems to be going, let me refresh you as to what you said.

But that didn't exclude asking the same question of any other airline that flew that route.

 

[JohnPhelan]

A very good wrap of the whole situation on tonight's NBC Nightly News, including comments from ex-NTSB investigator Greg Feith, and a couple of interesting animations.

Nightly News with Brian Williams Full Broadcast (July 17) - NBC News

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think the American representative to the UN security council has summed it up, for all you people who seem to think its MH's fault for not being safe enough. Things said to the affect of:

"MH17 was flying through an established flight corridor for commercial traffic"
"MH17 was flying through a frequently used route by other airlines"
"MH17 was transmitting the correct transponder code to show it was a commercial flight"
"MH17 was at 33,000ft and was obeying all civil aviation rules and regulations at the time"


Currently live on ABC24. Will post a script/Link if I can find one later.

I don't think anyone is saying it is MH's fault. That would be entirely incorrect.

The issue is the assessment of risk, and the degree carriers want to go to avoid risk. If, according Richard Quest, lots of pilots were uncomfortable flying over Eastern Ukraine, what was being done to address those concerns?

 

[medhead]

Whether or not they knew rebels had the missiles is irrelevant. Plus my guess is the rebels would never alert people that they have the weapons, it is warfare after all.

The issue is whether or not the company wanted to absorb the extra costs to fly around the Ukraine. It appears MAS didn't want to have those costs. Tragedy nonetheless, lives lost because of rebels, very sad.

I have a ticket from BNE - BOM return for my wife that we are cancelling, trust in MAS is totally gone.

Cheers
BF

I raised Afghanistan earlier in thread. Commercial airlines overflew the country for 13 years. As was rightly pointed that was because of limited capability to hit things at cruise altitude. Based on the comments in this thread Afghanistan should have been avoided completely.

Knowing if they have the weapons is entirely relevant as it determines the risk of this type of accident. If there is no known capability to hit aircraft exactly why should a war zone be avoided? You're claiming they should have avoided the area on the basis of no known threat and ignoring that there was no exclusion placed on the airspace. They followed the system that is in place for airline safety. Are airlines supposed to just guess about this stuff? Sorry, that is an untenable position to say we should just avoid things of no known reason.

That path leads to all sorts of emotional responses that are devoid of any logical thought. The fact is any airline could have been shot down. It is false to claim the accident happened because MH were following the normal, non restricted flight path to save fuel costs. (Do you have the minutes of the board meeting to prove that claim?) this accident says a hell of a lot about the idiot who gave dirt farmers those weapons. But it says about zero about MH as an airline or the safety of MH between bne and bom.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Russia currently speaking at the UN. They want a full investigation, but also an investigation into Ukraine, and why Ukrainian authorities didn't close their airspace earlier. And a tirade against Ukraine in general

 

[drron]

And the US Ambassador to the UN has said that the missile was fired from the rebel held area.

“Our assessment is that Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 . . . was likely downed by an SA-11 missile, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine,” U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council on Friday.
She added that “because of the technical complexity of the SA-11,” it was unlikely that the separatists could have effectively operated it on their own. “We cannot rule out Russian technical assistance,” Power said.

Initial U.S. assessment: Pro-Russian rebels fired missile that downed Malaysia jet - The Washington Post

 

[coyote25]

Still 47 to be accounted for but not one confirmed US on board


154 Dutch
27 Australian
23 Malaysian
11 Indonesian
6 UK
4 German
4 Belgian
3 Philippines
One Canadian

Saw a report that there was 1 US citizen according to USA Today website.

Unbelievable event. My nephew flew back from Europe on MAS on Sunday. My sister knew 2 of the people who died coming back to Melbourne from a holiday.

 

[coyote25]

Story about the US citizen
http://usat.ly/1mWpew0

 

[Sprucegoose]

They now have an American casualty dual Dutchie. Sharpens the response

 

[Sprucegoose]

Russia currently speaking at the UN. They want a full investigation, but also an investigation into Ukraine, and why Ukrainian authorities didn't close their airspace earlier. And a tirade against Ukraine in general

Maybe one of those famous histrionic rants.

Zero street cred these Ruskies

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-banging_incident

 

[Sprucegoose]

TONY A .... full of 'talk'....let's see how much 'action'

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opini...lds-condemnation/story-e6frg75f-1226994094965