Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[Kefci2000]

Seriously to think that the rebels are really freedom fighters and not Russian or Russian backed fighter is so naive. These people are sinister. Any soldier that has to hide behind a mask is very dubious

 

[boomy]

Seriously to think that the rebels are really freedom fighters and not Russian or Russian backed fighter is so naive. These people are sinister. Any soldier that has to hide behind a mask is very dubious

Therefore they are called rebels and not soldiers. I don't think there is any doubt about the fact that they are all organised and sponsored by Russia.

 

[artemis]

I believe it was Russian separatists leaders. There's also news that the separatists may have taken the black boxes so lets hope that they'll at least give it to the Russians and the Russians should pass it on to the investigation group.

yeah right. and pigs might fly too.

 

[burmans]

I don't disagree with what you say - our world is a truly sad place of inhumanity on so many different levels. However I think when the day comes when people stop expressing shock and grief at innocent deaths ( and I grieve not only for my friends but ALL the deaths not just the Australian ones) that will truly be a day when we become less than human.

But here's the thing (and I had exactly this conversation with my wife yesterday), why are we so shocked by THESE innocent deaths. People die all the time in far greater numbers than this and we dont show anything like the same shock or grief. I can name many examples, famines, boat sinkings (including some coming to Australia we maybe don't get to hear about), various natural disasters, civil conflicts, the list goes on and on.

Even lets compare what is easily comparable, motor vehicle deaths vs air deaths. The first probably exceeds the second by more than 100 to 1 each year but how much shock do we have about this. Note I'm not saying don't be shocked by what has happened here, more why aren't we shocked by the rest?

 

[drron]

And the Russians caught editing Wikipedia about the cause of the accident.The circumstantial evidence is becoming substantial-
Tweetbot Catches Russian Government Editing Flight MH17 Wikipedia Info | Gizmodo Australia

The original version of the Wikipedia article listing civil aviation accidents stated that MH17 had been shot down “by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation.” Emphasis added.
The edits originating from the government-owned computer changed the article to read “the plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers“. Again, emphasis added.

 

[artemis]

Firstly - my condolences to Flying Mermaid for the loss of your friends.

It looks like MH17 was a case of mistaken identity. Nevertheless, I hope that the responsible criminals will be brought to justice and targeting civilian planes will not become a regular practice in future conflicts between nations.

It does appear it was unintentional. Those shooting it down seemed surprised a commercial airliner would fly overhead. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable. All parties who may have contributed to this should be held accountable.

As with many disasters, there is usually a chain of events.

I may be wrong, but believe that SAM guidance systems (target acquisition radar TAR) are equipped with the ability to identify friend-or-foe (IFF) capabilities. Which means that not only did they (whoever) seek this target, but they ignored the warning that this was a civilian international aircraft and pulled the trigger nonetheless. Which makes this whole thing even more galling.

What really resonates with me though, is the loss of 80 children, and 3 infants travelling as family groups and >100 researchers travelling to a conference to make the lives of people they didn't know better. Reading the manifest is sobering.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...anifesto-emerges/story-fnizu68q-1226994453988

What's super-depressing is that flying is still safer than driving!

 

[Austman]

why are we so shocked by THESE innocent deaths. People die all the time in far greater numbers than this and we dont show anything like the same shock or grief.
Note I'm not saying don't be shocked by what has happened here, more why aren't we shocked by the rest?

It's a good question. I've asked it too. It seems to have something to do with tragedy and technology. I don't know why. But when 'high' technology is involved, a tragedy seems to get a different perspective. Even if the loss of life is just one or few persons it can invoke a huge world-wide response. Maybe it's because of the trust that is placed in those technologies and the systems that make them work safely?

 

[drron]

From my own personal perspective things are more real to me if I think that it could have been me or if I know someone involved.
So I have flown Asia-Europe.
I have been to NYC.
I have been to Bali and my son could have been there as part of a post season football trip.
I think in these situations it is human nature to affect you more but I still shed a tear at other times especially when innocent children are slaughtered.

 

[knightman7]

I think it's all to do with awareness and how relatable the tragedy is. By that I mean, there are atrocities occurring in larger numbers around the world every day. I'm sure many forum members are well aware of many of them. But they aren't widely reported and not in the eye of the media so people can't be outraged.

But I think the fact that this disaster strikes quite close to home, in that air travel is a very common thing that many people can relate to. Most people will look at the news story of a plane being shot down or crashing and immediately think of the plane trips they have taken and plan to take in the future. It's a relatable event. But they read about genocide and mass murder in Africa and Asia and become numb to it, as it's not something that affects them directly.

Sad indictment of the human condition but it's true.

 

[anat0l]

...boat sinkings (including some coming to Australia we maybe don't get to hear about)...

Ah, well that's easy to explain. We voted in a government which gives us the moral right to not be grieving about such people, because they are illegally attempting to enter the country.


In all seriousness, the point made by many about who we grieve for (and those we don't) are noted. I guess we sometimes are driven too much by the mass media, and in many cases what seems like a "normal" course of events - such as the conflict in the Middle East which is ongoing - is quite unfortunately branded as such, rendering the death and destruction in that area almost "numbing" or "normal" - quite unfair, as it were. It takes extraordinary events like this until we offer our tributes, and then we may not be so 'sympathetic' had there been no Australians on board that aircraft.

If a plane crashed every month of the year, how long might it take before we also "numb" and simply think, "...and there's this month's casualties"....

 

[The Rok]

If only one good thing comes of this disaster, it should be that the world uses this opportunity to curb Putin & his Armies. For years, much the same as North Korea, they have been testing the boundaries so to speak, checking people's patience and bluffing, seeing just how far they can push.

Australia, UK, USA and most of all the gutless, spineless EU need to pull Russia back into its place.

Impose sanctions, force Russia to withdraw ALL forces and assistance in the Ukraine and show that they are accountable for their actions.

No consolation to the families of MH17 though..

 

[jimg1111]

No, rather decorated for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service" and subsequently promoted.

The US did pay out some substantive 'reparations' - at least the separists/ Russians haven't claimed the MH17 plane was doing a kamikaze dive bomber attack, as per the SS Vincennes in '88 in the days & weeks following the Iranian airline missile hit. Yep, it was in our Oz papers, & everywhere else.

Similar incident, in several respects ... ~290 deaths, 'mistaken identity', conflict zone, regular airline service ...
Obvious differences would include paramilitary cf professional armed services, ... Always ugly stuff.

 

[Flying mermaid]

But here's the thing (and I had exactly this conversation with my wife yesterday), why are we so shocked by THESE innocent deaths. People die all the time in far greater numbers than this and we dont show anything like the same shock or grief. I can name many examples, famines, boat sinkings (including some coming to Australia we maybe don't get to hear about), various natural disasters, civil conflicts, the list goes on and on.

Even lets compare what is easily comparable, motor vehicle deaths vs air deaths. The first probably exceeds the second by more than 100 to 1 each year but how much shock do we have about this. Note I'm not saying don't be shocked by what has happened here, more why aren't we shocked by the rest?

We probably should be shocked by the rest - "Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind". I think there are two factors - firstly we become accustomed to things so road deaths become part of daily reporting so it takes an unusual one to evoke the same sadness. Secondly it has to be something you can relate to on a personal level so while genocide in Africa is shocking and sad, it feels a lot further away and more unreal than a plane load of happy holiday makers suddenly blown out of the sky - who hasn't had in the last day a "that could have been me" thought?

 

[Deleted member 29185]

why are we so shocked by THESE innocent deaths. People die all the time in far greater numbers than this and we dont show anything like the same shock or grief.

It's a good question. I've asked it too. It seems to have something to do with tragedy and technology.

I think it's because we are very accustomed to airline travel being exceptionally safe. driving a car or travelling on a ferry has no where near the safety record of air travel. I think it's called conditioning.

OT but although I am saddened by this tragedy, I felt far more grief at the loss of all those school kids in the Korean ferry capsize. About the same number of deaths, but the innocence about kids dying after being directed by adults to stay where they were rather than abandoning ship was just heart wrenching, but this is after all, a frequent flyer forum, not a frequent sailing forum.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Firstly - my condolences to Flying Mermaid for the loss of your friends.







I may be wrong, but believe that SAM guidance systems (target acquisition radar TAR) are equipped with the ability to identify friend-or-foe (IFF) capabilities. Which means that not only did they (whoever) seek this target, but they ignored the warning that this was a civilian international aircraft and pulled the trigger nonetheless. Which makes this whole thing even more galling.

What really resonates with me though, is the loss of 80 children, and 3 infants travelling as family groups and >100 researchers travelling to a conference to make the lives of people they didn't know better. Reading the manifest is sobering.

MH17 passenger manifesto emerges | News.com.au

What's super-depressing is that flying is still safer than driving!

i dont know know the latest commentary on the SAM units, but they said people have to be 'trained' to make the correct identification of (a) civilian or military, and then (b) if military, whether it is friend or foe.

it would seem those using the SAMs didn't know much about the identification, given their surprise they had hit a civilian rather than military target.

 

[whatmeworry]

Knight's latest cartoon.

 

[legroom]

But here's the thing (and I had exactly this conversation with my wife yesterday), why are we so shocked by THESE innocent deaths. People die all the time in far greater numbers than this and we dont show anything like the same shock or grief. I can name many examples, famines, boat sinkings (including some coming to Australia we maybe don't get to hear about), various natural disasters, civil conflicts, the list goes on and on.

Even lets compare what is easily comparable, motor vehicle deaths vs air deaths. The first probably exceeds the second by more than 100 to 1 each year but how much shock do we have about this. Note I'm not saying don't be shocked by what has happened here, more why aren't we shocked by the rest?

My 2c on this question is that none of us expected to be shot down in a civilian airliner flying on an approved flight path.

Sure, other risks exist: engine failure, pilot suicide, terrorist bombs etc.... but this one risk - being blown to pieces without any provocation / warning - is the issue here.

Other situations like road fatalities, ferry sinking (in bad weather, due to poor luggage loading etc...) are within the realm of imaginations - not this one !

KAL 007 remained controversial with some still holding the belief that it was deliberately flying off course over sensitive military areas - note, I have no firm view here either way (leaning towards Russians as the bad guys then).

One normally expects the combatants to know what they are shooting at - that is the defence of civilian airliners flying in approved corridors over "hot" areas.

It appears in this case they did not know what they were aiming at. Sadly for 298 people !

 

[burmans]

Anyone else see the irony in the Der Spiegel report that the Airline which has had most flights over Ukraine in recent times was Aeroflot. You would have thought the Russian's might have told their own airline that "oh by the way, we are arming the rebels with SAM's and you might want to take a different route".

SQ second most flights but there are a large number on the list.

 

[NFF]

Truth is the first casualty of war. I don't believe every single word from both sides of the media. Crying for blood will only hurt more innocent people.

 

[burmans]

My 2c on this question is that none of us expected to be shot down in a civilian airliner flying on an approved flight path.

Sure, other risks exist: engine failure, pilot suicide, terrorist bombs etc.... but this one risk - being blown to pieces without any provocation / warning - is the issue here.

Other situations like road fatalities, ferry sinking (in bad weather, due to poor luggage loading etc...) are within the realm of imaginations - not this one !

KAL 007 remained controversial with some still holding the belief that it was deliberately flying off course over sensitive military areas - note, I have no firm view here either way (leaning towards Russians as the bad guys then).

One normally expects the combatants to know what they are shooting at - that is the defence of civilian airliners flying in approved corridors over "hot" areas.

It appears in this case they did not know what they were aiming at. Sadly for 298 people !

Personally I take a much more cynical view, just watching SBS, 267 civilians killed in Gaza today. But they aren't Australian, they aren't white, and they aren't Christians ( though ironically based on census figures neither are we) so we really don't care much. I think we have a very selfish view on what's a disaster.

Some would call this a very negative view but I frankly think it's supported by the facts. We are only shocked when we think it could be us, I.e. It affects Australians or people like us, otherwise we don't really seem to care that much.