Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[Foreigner]

Understandably, Malaysia Airlines removes MH 17 from their system. Now, renumbered MH 19.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/07/18/mh-ams-jul14/

 

[Buzzard]

I went to bed last night hoping that this was a horrible, horrible joke. When I woke this morning I found it to be a terrible, disgusting truth. The world saddens me at times like this. I just want to scream.

 

[JohnK]

A sad place indeed.

International investigators unable to secure access to crash site of downed jet

The whole world knows what has happened and these brain dead morons think they can cover up the investigation. Yep makes sense to me.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Just heard the terrible news that a dear friend of mine and her husband were on the flight. She was a truly good person - not in a church/religious sort of way. But kind and never malicious in what she said or did. Always interested in people and with a joy in life. She had always travelled on her own but her husband had retired recently and they had started doing trips together. She has two wonderful, successful daughters who she adored. She and her husband wiped out by a thug with a gun - when will we change and become less savage.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

CNN was showing footage of the SA-11 BUK missile launcher (minus one missile) on the back of a truck being driven back into Russian held territory.

The 28th Australian victim was a dual national so more than likely travelled on the non-Australian passport & hence not in the initital count of 27.

Australian citizens must depart/arrive Australia on their Australian passport so while Australian dual nationals would need to have used their Australian passport at checkin if travelling from Europe to Australia (otherwise the CSA would've needed to see an Australian visa in the EU passport), it's quite possible that an Australian only travelling as far as KUL could have used their EU passport as no visa is required for Malaysia so both passports would have satisfied the entry criteria for Malaysia.

Just heard the terrible news that a dear friend of mine and her husband were on the flight. She was a truly good person - not in a church/religious sort of way. But kind and never malicious in what she said or did. Always interested in people and with a joy in life. She had always travelled on her own but her husband had retired recently and they had started doing trips together. She has two wonderful, successful daughters who she adored.

So sorry to hear your news FM. I saw an interview with one of the family members of a Queenslander lost in the tragedy who said their loved family member used to say if they were sad to do something nice for someone. I think that's a great legacy.

 

[legroom]

On many occasions travelling to conferences on planes packed full of academics / professionals, I had - on odd occasions - wondered about the catastrophic loss of knowledge & experience if the planes were to go down.

It seems like that irrational thought had come true with MH17 where there were reportedly 'up to 100' AIDS experts coming to attend the Melbourne conference.

Everyone, expert or not, remained precious & special to their loved ones and none deserved to die while flying from A to B in a commercial plane in a corridor judged safe by professional bodies (ICAO etc...).

MH was plain unlucky !

Like it or not, the world of real-politics is such a nasty, horrible place where the last thing bullies / thugs are concerned with are respect for human lives (esp. civilians) and established international laws (in this case, a civilian plane @ 33,000 feet) simply because ... they can do so.

Rewriting history is not a Russian specialty BTW. Others are more practiced in that department.

 

[Ansett]

Just heard the terrible news that a dear friend of mine and her husband were on the flight. She was a truly good person - not in a church/religious sort of way. But kind and never malicious in what she said or did. Always interested in people and with a joy in life. She had always travelled on her own but her husband had retired recently and they had started doing trips together. She has two wonderful, successful daughters who she adored. She and her husband wiped out by a thug with a gun - when will we change and become less savage.

Our sincere condolences to you and your friends family. This is a truly shocking event.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Like everyone, I'm deeply saddened by this tragic event. My deepest sympathy goes out to all who are affected.

It does strike me, that everyone plays their part in the world, some more than others and the one thing that resonates with me is the suggestion that the AIDs professor may have been exceptionally close to a cure for AIDs. Is one life lost any more tragic than the next? I don't know, but it seems a very cruel twist if that report is true.

As for the other argument about blame apportionment..........too early in my estimation. It seems to be clear that this was a mistaken attack, perpetrated by zealots with the belief their "rights" and "liberties" and "desires" should be allowed at any expense. I doubt (or perhaps hope) there was nothing more sinister than that. Unfortunately we live in a world where technology exists which can cause serious and widespread injury. Even the "mighty" US of A is not immune to mistakes. How many times have we heard reports of "friendlies" being taken out because someone misconstrued a reality? How many of those people were brought to justice on murder charges? Were the US citizens directly responsible for shooting down that civilian Iranian aircraft ever tried for mass murder? (that's not rhetorical, I don't know myself)

This is a tragic event and I'm most genuinely saddened by the true waste of life, but I think we all must come to grips with the fact that we live in an imperfect world where avoidable tragedies do happen and will continue to happen. I'm reminded of that very true quote from Kamahl, "Why are people so unkind".

 

[mannej]

Just heard the terrible news that a dear friend of mine and her husband were on the flight. She was a truly good person - not in a church/religious sort of way. But kind and never malicious in what she said or did. Always interested in people and with a joy in life. She had always travelled on her own but her husband had retired recently and they had started doing trips together. She has two wonderful, successful daughters who she adored. She and her husband wiped out by a thug with a gun - when will we change and become less savage.

I am sorry to hear the news.

 

[Jack_OC]

Firstly, FlyingMermaid - I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.

On the subject of other airlines "avoiding" this airspace, I'm still not convinced that many (or even any) did so. There is a very big difference between being able to say (a) "we have not been flying through that airspace" and (b) "we have been actively avoiding that airspace in light of the perceived risk". Clearly a few airlines can truthfully make a statement along the lines of (a), but I'm not so sure about (b).

Firstly, as I posted yesterday, the spokesman from Eurocontrol specifically said he was not aware of any airline that was actively avoiding this airspace.

According to the NY Times article, some airlines had been "avoiding" this airspace in the days before the crash, but in the graphic, the only 2 airlines not shown flying through Ukrainian airspace are BA and AF. It has been widely reported that BA and AF both issued statements yesterday, saying they are now avoiding this airspace, as a result of this incident. That tells me that either (a) they were not avoiding it previously or (b) they don't want to (or are not allowed to) say when or why they started avoiding it. Perhaps there was intelligence info that was only shared with a select few. If so, I'd be pointing the finger at the govts who chose not to share the info, rather than at the airlines who didn't receive it.

Wrt other airlines "avoiding" this area - as Markis pointed out, QF had a different reason for changing their route. CX obviously start their flights further north, so may not have followed the same route in the first place.

In summary, I think finger pointing at MH should stop, unless/until someone actually has evidence to suggest they were at fault.

 

[drron]

The videos of the BUK arriving in the area before the event and leaving after are available in this article-
Did Russian separatists shoot down MH17? - Channel 4 News

As to the Russian claims it was the Ukrainians who launched the missile the Russians claimed a week ago that the Ukrainians were pullking their AA units out of the area and sending them to the Crimean border.This link has not yet been withdrawn-
Morning News Digest 11 July 2014 | ??????? ?????

Their are reports that in the last few weeks the Russians have been training the rebels in the use of the BUK system-
Separatists said to have received antiaircraft training in Russia - The Washington Post

To those critiscising MHs use of the legal air corridor why is it the airline using it the most was the Russians?
Malaysia Airlines MH17: Lufthansa überflog Ost-Ukraine 56 Mal - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Sadly even our local paper has no clue about the no fly zone-
Why was MH17 flying over Ukranian war zone? | Sunshine Coast Daily

The proclaimed no flight zone was to 24000 feet.the authorities then add a 33% buffer to get the 32000 feet exclusion.MH was flying 9000 feet above the exclusion zone.It had requested 35000 feet but Ukraine ATC said 33000.Again from Eurocontrol this was lega-
https://www.eurocontrol.int/news/mh-17-ukraine

And here is the UKs NOTAM re Ukraine.It refers to the crimea and the threat was not missiles but conflict between Ukrainian and Russian ATC.
Latest NATS Briefing | NOTAM Info

Nice of BA to say they stopped overflying Ukraine for safety reasons but their southerly flight path takes them over Syria and Iraq where anti Government forces are also known to have SAMs.Should these be now prohibited because it is exactly the same situation as the Ukraine until 17/7.

 

[Happy Trails]

Were the US citizens directly responsible for shooting down that civilian Iranian aircraft ever tried for mass murder? (that's not rhetorical, I don't know myself)

No, rather decorated for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service" and subsequently promoted.

William C. Rogers III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[drron]

Good point Jack3193.Just did the HKG-AMS route on GCM and it is to the north of that part of the Ukraine by a fair distance so unlikely to be avoiding it for safety reasons.
Great Circle Mapper

 

[medhead]

It does strike me, that everyone plays their part in the world, some more than others and the one thing that resonates with me is the suggestion that the AIDs professor may have been exceptionally close to a cure for AIDs. Is one life lost any more tragic than the next? I don't know, but it seems a very cruel twist if that report is true.

I think the answer is no, all life lost is tragic. I think my brother in law was just making an observation.

It is also timely that the radio news this morning reported that two people in Sydney no longer had HIV in them. Perhaps they already have a cure.

 

[tgh]

One down.. next??
It seems the genie is now out of the bottle.
IF the perpetrators get lots of publicity and little or no retribution (hiding behind russian skirts) , other folks may recalculate the cost -v- benefits of downing a few more.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I think the answer is no, all life lost is tragic. I think my brother in law was just making an observation.

It is also timely that the radio news this morning reported that two people in Sydney no longer had HIV in them. Perhaps they already have a cure.

OT but the cures were because they had bone marrow transplants for haematological malignancies.

 

[medhead]

This just posted on other social media. My guess charter flight to Keiv. :?:

View attachment 32144

 

[woodborer]

This just posted on other social media. My guess charter flight to Keiv. :?:

Malaysia had announced that a Disaster Assistance team were on route to Kiev. May have been them. http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...MART-team-to-recover-remains-from-crash-site/

 

[juddles]

My one and only contribution to this thread (as there are enough experts and opinions already to last a lifetime):

I believe it is sad and unfortunate that a civilian airliner was taken out in the ¨fog of war¨. I do not believe this occured for any sinister reasons, just simply a mistake by some ¨rebels¨ that at the time thought they were fighting their enemy.

But what dismays me here is the ¨shock¨ at the loss of ¨innocent lives¨. I cannot remember the last time there was not a war going on in some part of the world. Every day since time immemorial there have been hundreds or thousands of innocent victims of war.

The shock expressed at a couple of dozen Australian deaths shows how well the Australian public is shielded from the brutalities that occur every day on this planet.

Please, dont flame me - I am not in any way saying I do not feel for the loss - on the contrary - but this happens to good people EVERY single day.

 

[Flying mermaid]

My one and only contribution to this thread (as there are enough experts and opinions already to last a lifetime):

I believe it is sad and unfortunate that a civilian airliner was taken out in the ¨fog of war¨. I do not believe this occured for any sinister reasons, just simply a mistake by some ¨rebels¨ that at the time thought they were fighting their enemy.

But what dismays me here is the ¨shock¨ at the loss of ¨innocent lives¨. I cannot remember the last time there was not a war going on in some part of the world. Every day since time immemorial there have been hundreds or thousands of innocent victims of war.

The shock expressed at a couple of dozen Australian deaths shows how well the Australian public is shielded from the brutalities that occur every day on this planet.

Please, dont flame me - I am not in any way saying I do not feel for the loss - on the contrary - but this happens to good people EVERY single day.

I don't disagree with what you say - our world is a truly sad place of inhumanity on so many different levels. However I think when the day comes when people stop expressing shock and grief at innocent deaths ( and I grieve not only for my friends but ALL the deaths not just the Australian ones) that will truly be a day when we become less than human.