NBN Discussion

[serfty]

Wait 'til October 1st, 2015.

 

[drsmithy]

Yes you did mention Romania.

In response to this:

So the diagram is very relevant to the topic and not deceptive at all when we get silly ads on the TV telling us how good the broadband is in Romania.

You also admit we have to run cables TO those centres of urbanisation-and I see you use centres over 1000.

I never denied we had to run cables between population centres. Indeed, that's a fairly core part of my main point - because we are such a highly urbanised country we don't have anything like the extremely low population density being implied by overlaying a map of Europe on a map of Australia.

So my mentioning the distance from Port Lincoln[pop-14,086] to Cairns[pop-154,820] being 5000Km is relevant. Hardly any of that distance is a vast tract of unpopulated land.
How are you going to get the service to Darwin,Perth,Kalgoorlie,Alice Springs,Broken Hill.You are talking about Places that are included in your 90% urbanisation figures according to your World Bank link.

You need to run fibre between population centres. Nobody has ever suggested otherwise.


The point here is that using figures for population density that take into account the entire landmass provides a skewed impression of population density, when in reality 75% or more of the country is empty, and somewhere in the ballpark of 85%+ of the population live in urban centres of 10,000 people or more, in standard housing developments, townhouses, or apartments.


Ie: we are a highly urbanised country.

Also WA,QLD,NT,SA and NSW are in area all larger than any European country.


PS-if you pictures in post 538 were to the same scale it would prove just how much more cable you need to lay in Australia to get coverage of our Urban centres.

YES, BUT THEY'RE MOSTLY EMPTY AND ONLY NEED TRUNK LINES BETWEEN THE MAJOR POPULATION CENTRES WHERE NEARLY EVERYONE LIVES.


I'm not sure much more clearly I can explain this. The big cost isn't in running a fibre link a thousand kilometres between two towns, it's in running it down each suburban street within those towns and then potentially into all the residences on those streets.

 

[coriander]

Just as it is now....what a scary comment. I've been battling with Telstra for around a year over various line issues. And I live in one of the major towns, not in the middle of nowhere. As best I can tell, the lines are only about 15 years old and they are already terrible.

Agreed. My place of work in in the western suburbs of Melbourne in an area designated as an urban development zone some 12km from the CBD according to Google Maps. I've been here ~40 years. We have a 50-pair cable that runs from the pit in the street to my premises' junction box: works ok. However, about every 9-12 months, we'll lose ADSL or perhaps one of the three incoming lines. Telstra turn up, open the pit, bail out the water and move a couple of connectors both in the pit and at the local street pole device and lo and behold, we are back online. Technician's comment: the copper cabling is "stuffed", probably from sitting in muddy water for 50 years. When the line in the street runs out of available unused pairs, we'll be in strife. No plans for NBN in our locality yet.

The government provides you a water connection, however if you wish to consume more water than will fit down your standard 16mm pipe, you need to pay to upgrade it to 32mm (or whatever the sizes are). The same with electricity. If you need a higher capacity meter, you pay for it, not the electricity company.

True, but a bl**dy great big water main runs right past my premises, and, as I was a business, when I biuilt my premises the water company replaced the existing 1/2" pipe with a 32mm (1 1/4" in old lingo) pipe right up to the water meter placed in the front of my premises at minimal cost. I didn't have to pay for a 32mm pipe from a water main connection point 500m down the road.

 

[RAM]

A disturbing piece of news....

In Sydney we had a good electrical storm on Monday night, super!

A lightening strike happened VERY close to our home. Our kids did not know my wife could scream like that! I was out at the time so I'll say I don't either.

Neither did our cats.

Next day, went to turn on the PC (turned off during the storm) and problems - no internet connection. The cable modem would not work.

No resetting, dismantling, trouble shooting would fix it.

Called. 30 minutes later, "we'd better send a technician out to deal with it."

This morning at 11.20am, within the window of 7.30am to 12pm, tech shows up and walks in with a new modem. Does not even look at the old one, asks me to disconnect it and run the cables/power cords the way I want them for the new one.

Sets it up very rapidly, tells me how wonderful it is....Actually it's 3 times the size of the old 'surfboard' modem.

HOWEVER, no PC connectivity.

Tech, "looks like you need to replace your network card. The modem's working perfectly. I won't charge you for the modem, all you need to do is pay for the call out."

Hold on a minute, that's the first I've been told about a call out fee.

Tech, "yeah, customer support really need better training. Makes my life hell."

I counter with well, as the PC was not turned on, disconnected from the power supply, then the only way the lightening fried the modem and network card was via the cable. So why am I required to pay for the damage that their equipment caused?

Tech, "that's just how it is."

So, regardless of whether you are on NBN with cable or Optus or Telstra cable your machine is at risk from a lightening strike unless you disconnect the cable.

Given the cables are bolted to the connections that makes life a bit hard. I don't recall ever reading in the fine print (and I've read every version since day one) about the risk from lightening via the cable connection.

I foresee a number of long and interesting phone calls when time permits...

 

[RooFlyer]

OK, lets say we run the optic fibre to and through all pop centres of 10,000+ people. Huge cost. HUGE!

Then what happens? Do you then force people to take up the service? In Tas (which was the first NBN roll-out areas) , the take-up of available FTTP service is lamentable. OK, think of your favourite Tasmanian joke [here] but the point is that there is an enormous - enormous - up-front cost with no guarantee that the great unwashed will appreciate it and use the wretched thing.

In big cities - I have no problem. But in rural areas, laying fibre up front is simply not a good use of funds, when a more than adequate service can be had for much less cost and considering the likely actual take-up and use of the broadband. And it doesn't preclude fibre being run out in the future. Its just a 'horses for courses' solution, rather than an top-down driven 'FTTP is what we are gunna do - to hell with the cost' attitude which appears to be so prevalent.

 

[drsmithy]

So, regardless of whether you are on NBN with cable or Optus or Telstra cable your machine is at risk from a lightening strike unless you disconnect the cable.

Given the cables are bolted to the connections that makes life a bit hard. I don't recall ever reading in the fine print (and I've read every version since day one) about the risk from lightening via the cable connection.

I foresee a number of long and interesting phone calls when time permits...

I must admit I would have thought this was common sense.

I'm sure you don't use a phone during a storm ? Well, if you have ADSL, your modem is connected to the phone, and your PC is probably connected to the modem (much like your hand might be connected to the phone).

Cable TV comes from a wire on the same pole your electricity connection does. Doesn't seem like a stretch to assume that it is similarly vulnerable to lightning strikes, as is your cable modem/foxtel box and, subsequently, your TV(s) and/or computer(s).

Their equipment didn't cause the damage, the lightning did. Not telling you about the callout fee is another matter.

PS> Other appliances in the house may also be damaged, make sure you check them all. Your home & contents insurance may cover repairs/replacement.

 

[drsmithy]

OK, lets say we run the optic fibre to and through all pop centres of 10,000+ people. Huge cost. HUGE!

Then what happens? Do you then force people to take up the service? In Tas (which was the first NBN roll-out areas) , the take-up of available FTTP service is lamentable. OK, think of your favourite Tasmanian joke [here] but the point is that there is an enormous - enormous - up-front cost with no guarantee that the great unwashed will appreciate it and use the wretched thing.

That's the nature of national infrastructure. Phone lines, roads, water mains, rail, etc. That's why they should be publicly funded and owned.

In big cities - I have no problem. But in rural areas, laying fibre up front is simply not a good use of funds, when a more than adequate service can be had for much less cost and considering the likely actual take-up and use of the broadband. And it doesn't preclude fibre being run out in the future. Its just a 'horses for courses' solution, rather than an top-down driven 'FTTP is what we are gunna do - to hell with the cost' attitude which appears to be so prevalent.

It is my understanding that the technologies used for FTTN are not easily or economically - if at all - transferrable to FTTP, nor are the technologies used in FTTN as easily or cheaply scaled as FTTP. Ie: when you hit the technological limits of FTTN, you have to go back and start again from scratch to do FTTP.

 

[RAM]

I must admit I would have thought this was common sense.

I'm sure you don't use a phone during a storm ? Well, if you have ADSL, your modem is connected to the phone, and your PC is probably connected to the modem (much like your hand might be connected to the phone).

Cable TV comes from a wire on the same pole your electricity connection does. Doesn't seem like a stretch to assume that it is similarly vulnerable to lightning strikes, as is your cable modem/foxtel box and, subsequently, your TV(s) and/or computer(s).

Their equipment didn't cause the damage, the lightning did. Not telling you about the callout fee is another matter.

I am not sure if you have or have had cable but it is bolted to the connection. You cannot simply disconnect it by hand it requires a spanner to do it.

Their equipment DID cause the damage as it did not have the cheap and easily built in cable lightening arrester. Neither did they declare that it did not nor did they warn that lightening is an issue. However, both AusGrid and Telstra/Optus do warn about disconnecting power/not using fixed line phones during an electrical storm. Where's the difference with cable?

For any other connection you are able to feed the lines through a surge arrester. With the cable connection you are not supposed to interfere with the connection from the installed wall socket to the modem. If you do then you void the T&Cs.

A simple lightening surge arrester exists and is an inexpensive item. That such a device is not built into the modem supplied by the cable provider and that you were required to use (told, no I could not use the modem I happened to have) is the problem.

With the NBN being forced onto people whether you want it or not (if you have a fixed line phone then you have no choice after cable is run past your place and the existing fixed service is turned off).

Cost to them for having the protection would be less than $1 per device.

POSTSCRIPT

Done some searching and there are a number of interesting posts on various blogs about the cable provider paying for the damage caused to TVs or PCs due to the network card (or worse) being fried by a nearby lightening strike +/or its induced current impact on the cable due to near field effects.

Such as on Whirlpool. Now to see if they are true.

 

[Warks]

In 20 years when it gets here I hope it's better than this:



This is my workplace wifi - good upload speed compared to home which is about 1.

 

[drsmithy]

I am not sure if you have or have had cable but it is bolted to the connection. You cannot simply disconnect it by hand it requires a spanner to do it.

I meant disconnect your computer from the cable modem. IIRC with cable connections (it's been a while), doesn't the cable box remain the property of the provider ?

With the NBN being forced onto people whether you want it or not (if you have a fixed line phone then you have no choice after cable is run past your place and the existing fixed service is turned off).

FYI that NBN cable is likely safer since it's coming in as a glass or plastic cable, not a copper one.

Other than that, it's not different to the way you're currently "forced" to use a phone line.

Cost to them for having the protection would be less than $1 per device.

Likely no vendor of cable modems makes one with it in.

Done some searching and there are a number of interesting posts on various blogs about the cable provider paying for the damage caused to TVs or PCs due to the network card (or worse) being fried by a nearby lightening strike +/or its induced current impact on the cable due to near field effects.

Such as on Whirlpool. Now to see if they are true.

This would be reasonable if the cable box remains the property of the provider. That being said, it's easy to disconnect your computer from the cable box, so whether or not you get anything probably depends on how persistent you're prepared to be on the phone.

Moral of the story: if a cable comes into your house from the outside, regardless of what it's for, it's susceptible to lightning strikes as is anything connected to it. That includes your regular old aerial wall plug as well.

 

[RAM]

FYI that NBN cable is likely safer since it's coming in as a glass or plastic cable, not a copper one.

Unfortunately that is not correct.
FTTN then has cable to the home or not even FTTN as in many areas the old Telstra copper is going to be used.

Other than that, it's not different to the way you're currently "forced" to use a phone line.

The phone line is routed via a surge arrestor, the phone companies publish a warning. Other than that you're right there is no difference.

Likely no vendor of cable modems makes one with it in.

Wrong. There are many manufacturers of cable modems with built-in surge arresters.

Cable has been around for decades in the US and built-in surge arresters are standard. For example have a look at this blog on ATT cable from 2002 for example:
can the cable modem be plugged in surge protector? - AT&T ...www.dslreports.com › ... › AT&T Broadband


Broadband Reports


Mar 8, 2002 - 18 posts - ‎15 authors
Just for your info ... all of the techs are trained to plug the modem into a wall outlet for stability and most modems have a surge protector built in ...

This would be reasonable if the cable box remains the property of the provider. That being said, it's easy to disconnect your computer from the cable box,

Actually if you put the communication cable in/out frequently then the connection is likely to get broken as they are not designed for frequent connection/disconnection.

so whether or not you get anything probably depends on how persistent you're prepared to be on the phone.

Rang and discussed it with them. Call out fee is to be refunded - no argument from them.

Moral of the story: if a cable comes into your house from the outside, regardless of what it's for, it's susceptible to lightning strikes as is anything connected to it. That includes your regular old aerial wall plug as well.

So many after-market surge arresters for cable available problem is they all go between the modem and the wall socket! It does not appear the replacement modem contains an arrester.

Good to see that ATT had them in its modems in 2002 but here in Australia in 2015 we don't!

 

[codash1099]

NBN: Getting on with the job... of failure - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[whatmeworry]

With the change to MTM, NBN has spent $11 billion on a copper and HFC network without knowing the condition of the network.

Would you spend $11 billion on something without knowing exactly what you were buying? NBN Co did, when it announced in December 2014 a "landmark deal" with Telstra under which it would "progressively take ownership of elements of Telstra's copper and hybrid fibre coaxial (HFC) networks."

	NBN Co's new corporate plan, released yesterday, reveals that the company has little information on the quality of Telstra's copper and HFC networks, which will be crucial to its ability to deliver fibre-to-the-node and HFC broadband services, expected to account for, respectively, about 29 and 27 percent of the total.

$11bn Surprise Bag: NBN Still In Dark Over Telstra Copper - Smart Office

Paul Buddle thinks Turnbull has no clue what he is doing in regards to the NBN.

news Veteran telecommunications analyst Paul Budde has accused Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull of having “no clue what he was doing” with the National Broadband Network project, in the wake of news that the Coalition’s Multi-Technology Mix approach to the NBN has blown out in cost by up to $15 billion.

Turnbull 'has no clue what he is doing', says Paul Budde | Delimiter

The satellite Turnbull didn't want and now calls it a game changer, is to be launch in about 30 days.

In 34 days and counting, Australia is set to blast a satellite weighing as much as an elephant one-tenth of the way to the moon.
Its name is Sky Muster, it's worth about half-a-billion dollars, and there's a slim - but very real - chance it could be blown to smithereens before it's even left the Earth's atmosphere.
This is the satellite Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull never wanted, but is now busy spruiking as a "game-changer" for the potentially hundreds of thousands of rural and remote Australians who can't get a decent internet connection to save themselves.

​

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/govern...ted-prepares-for-liftoff-20150825-gj7t3j.html
​

 

[james4321]

the NBN is becoming just another thing from the Abbott Folly years that our grandchildren will shake their heads about and ask " what were you on when you elected these guys?"

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

the NBN is becoming just another thing from the Abbott Folly years that our grandchildren will shake their heads about and ask " what were you on when you elected these guys?"

You mean like we say now about the last government?

 

[JessicaTam]

You mean like we say now about the last government?

I think like we say about every previous government.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Paul Buddle thinks Turnbull has no clue what he is doing in regards to the NBN.

By Jove I think he's got it!

 

[whatmeworry]

By Jove I think he's got it!

This might kill Malcolm’s bid for the Liberal leadership once the LNP lose next year.

 

[moa999]

By Jove I think he's got it!

Paul Budde just wants FTTP everywhere - which is just not feasible unless everyone pays $100/mth for Internet.

In the next 6-12 months a heap of FTTN 'trial' sites will fill out in rapid succession.

That said the on boarding process needs to be improved. Recently switched to Belong FTTB and due to NBN screwups was left without any Internet or Home phone for almost three weeks

 

[TheRealTMA]

Paul Budde just wants FTTP everywhere - which is just not feasible unless everyone pays $100/mth for Internet.

In the next 6-12 months a heap of FTTN 'trial' sites will fill out in rapid succession.

That said the on boarding process needs to be improved. Recently switched to Belong FTTB and due to NBN screwups was left without any Internet or Home phone for almost three weeks

No, this is very short sighted. FTTP is the only way to do this or we'll be paying fir it over and over again for years with a nasty mess of govt and Micky mouse PPPs. Why didn't we buikd phone connections to a cabinet at the end of the street and have people walk down to make calls. FTTN is brainless waste of money.

"Do it once, do it right, do it to the home"