NBN Discussion

[drsmithy]

BTW, you and the urban lot aren't subsidising me, we non urban types are subsidising you. The government is buying you a Rolls Royce. Its buying me a very serviceable Commodore. That's OK, I'm happy with the Commodore and if you think you are entitled to a Roller, go for it. The rural based agricultural and mining sectors have always provided the country with its intrinsic wealth.

Rural Tasmania subsidising the cities ? Please show your working.

If your area is self-sufficient, why isn't private industry providing you with high-speed internet ?

I'm happy with what the government is providing, thank-you and happy that my hard-earned is going towards an efficient service and that its come this year. Its only those who bellyache about not having the very BEST, paid for by everyone else, who can trade up if they want to put their money where their whining is. (But they won't, because they usually believe the gov'mint should pay )

Yeah. It's a much smarter idea to build a half-coughd solution that needs to be rebuilt later than just build it properly in the first place.

The NBN is going to be running around the country laying down lots and lots of cables to replace existing infrastructure. Only they're putting in HFC not fibre. It's not about having "the very best", as you keep trying to falsely assert, it's about building something that's scalable, forward-looking and future-proof as possible.

Where do I live? Rural Tasmania will do for the purposes of this conversation (that much may have been obvious already ...). We have 3G service here, and I catch some stray 4G from a tower up the coast. NBN coming later this year. At my other place, also rural Tasmania (more remote), there is 4G and a freshly commissioned FW service. Brilliant.

So basically, you're in exactly the same situation you're criticising those evil city-dwellers for. You've got a basic connection but you want a better one because it's not good enough.

Thirty years, eh? We come back to the point made earlier: No other infrastructure is built now to provide for service decades from now. not schools, roads, hospitals, bridges ... nothing.

:shock:

I think we've descended into farce at this point.

The Harbour Bridge is ninety years. Even if you wanted to "stop" at the point they built the cross harbour tunnel, that'd be sixty years.
The PA Hospital here in Brisbane. Founded 1959.
Gateway motorway, opened for traffic nearly thirty years ago.
The "Old Bridge" in Rocky, 65 years old. The "New Bridge", 35 years old.

How long do you think the sewer and water mains underneath major cities have been there ? What do you think the service life on high voltage powerlines is ?

Oh, and if you can explain your contention that "Densities are not low over large areas" (referring to Australia), that would be good. You can even put it in big, bold, italicised underlined writing, if that floats your boat.

I've already explained it several times. I can't make it any clearer. The parts of Australia that are populated and relevant to a comparison of other countries fixed-line connectivity, do not have low population densities.

 

[RAM]

No. Wireless connections are not going to "obselete" wired ones.

Those 5G hero numbers are coming under tightly controlled conditions and ideal circumstances.

The speed of technology advance has not slowed. Neither have the 'flat earth' naysayers.

Just the same way as LTE came about, and 3G before that - so the commercialisation of 5G is in progress. The wide-area field trials are now underway following a series of successive localised field trials starting in late January 2016. It is happening NOW.

A key difference is that 5G is software driven NOT hardware driven. Somewhat similar to the advance in modulator/de-modulators .

The launch of the 'live' field trials was announced on Sept 15, 2015;

The nation's largest wireless carrier will begin field trials on so-called fifth-generation, or 5G, technology within the next 12 months, Roger Gurnani, chief information and technology architect for Verizon, said in an interview last week. He expects "some level of commercial deployment" to begin by 2017.

How fast is 5G? Verizon's tests have shown a connection speed that is 30 to 50 times faster than our current 4G network, or higher speeds than what Google Fiber offers through a direct physical connection into the home, Gurnani said. <<Google Fiber speed is 1 GB per second btw >>

There's a global race to get to 5G first, and Verizon intends to maintain its pole position. The New York-based company was one of the first carriers in the world to employ 4G technology back when it announced it would begin trials in 2008. By late 2010, it was ready to launch the service in 38 markets.

Verizon has a successful track record of introducing next gen mobile technology and the announcements to the Stock Exchange so far in 2016 indicate 5G is moving progressing on schedule (or even a little ahead actually).

The 12 month time frame for field trials to begin ended up being just 4 months later.

...andas of April 21, 2016

Verizon has seen data rates of "a gigabit a second or higher" in its field trials, Koeppe says. Verizon is now testing 5G in eight or nine locations around the US, he says. (See Verizon Will Pilot 5G Fixed Wireless in 2017.)

This early stage trial speed is many times faster than the NBN. Verizon remain committed to reaching 10 gb per second as their goal.

 

[RooFlyer]

ME: Thirty years, eh? We come back to the point made earlier: No other infrastructure is built now to provide for service decades from now. not schools, roads, hospitals, bridges ... nothing.

I think we've descended into farce at this point.

The Harbour Bridge is ninety years. Even if you wanted to "stop" at the point they built the cross harbour tunnel, that'd be sixty years.
The PA Hospital here in Brisbane. Founded 1959.
Gateway motorway, opened for traffic nearly thirty years ago.
The "Old Bridge" in Rocky, 65 years old. The "New Bridge", 35 years old.

Lets see ... have any of those bits of infrastructure been upgraded since they were built? I don't know about the Rockhampton bridges, but I reckon the answer to all the others is yes.

The Gateway Bridge, for example was fully duplicated - how's that for an upgrade? Harbour Bridge - Reconfigured road and rail lanes AND not quite duplicated by the harbour tunnel. PA Hospital - I'm guessing, now, but I reckon its seen an upgrade in the last 50+ years and maybe there's anew hospital somewhere too?

You have exactly demonstrated my point . NONE of those three were built, or were intended to be built for the very long term. they were built to suit the times and demand when they were built.

And since its also come to abuse, time to call it quits for me.

 

[drsmithy]

Just the same way as LTE came about, and 3G before that - so the commercialisation of 5G is in progress. The wide-area field trials are now underway following a series of successive localised field trials starting in late January 2016. It is happening NOW.

In real life, 4G was really fast until people started using it. Now it can be 5Mb one minute and 80Mb the next.

5G will be the same.

Wireless is inherently less performant, less stable and less reliable.

You can make the hero numbers look good, but you can't change physics. Meanwhile even the hero numbers are an order of magnitude or more slower.

 

[drsmithy]

You have exactly demonstrated my point .

"Your point" would have built another Gateway Motorway, one lane in each direction, every few years.
"Your point" would have build three or four Harbour Bridges. Not "reconfigured" the one that was built with foresight the first time.
"Your point" would be ripping up the city streets every few years to lay new water and sewer mains.
Etc.

The argument we don't build any infrastructure to last decades is ridiculous on its face, and calling it that is not "abuse".

 

[straitman]

In real life, 4G was really fast until people started using. Now it can be 5Mb one minute and 80Mb the next.

Wireless is inherently less performant, less stable and less reliable.

You can make the hero numbers look good, but you can't change physics.

As the 'dumb' users we are happy at our fairly consistent 120+ Mbps 4G.

Even at worst it is faster than most ADSL2 setups that I come across.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>
The argument we don't build any infrastructure to last decades is ridiculous on its face, and calling it that is not "abuse".

If you re-read your post, you'll see that's not what I was referring to.

 

[RAM]

In real life, 4G was really fast until people started using. Now it can be 5Mb one minute and 80Mb the next.

Wireless is inherently less performant, less stable and less reliable.

You can make the hero numbers look good, but you can't change physics.

I suggest you do some reading on what 5G is all about.

It is exactly to solve the capacity issue - in the testing done to date in the field they have transmitted dozens of 4k movies simultaneously to the same mobile devices in vehicles moving at highway speed.

The throughput capacity of 5G (one of the 3 main points of difference is that it has exponentially more capacity for the same band width) and the latency (as little a 1ms) are the game changers.

It is new technology. A bit like the move from propeller to turbo prop to jet to scram.

And in just the same way as people said the air frames would disintegrate at such high speeds - they were wrong and technology found solutions.

Many similar comments to your were made about the advent of that new fangled mobile phone technology. Wouldn't work, couldn't provide the clarity that fixed line could etc etc.

Have a look at India. In most of India (not the large cities) they have NEVER installed fixed line phones - they simply went from no phone service to 3G.

 

[drsmithy]

As the 'dumb' users we are happy at our fairly consistent 120+ Mbps 4G.

Even at worst it is faster than most ADSL2 setups that I come across.

If you are consistently getting that sort of 4G speed then hardly anyone is using your nodes.

I used to get "consistent" 80Mb out of 4G in my house. Now it can vary from 5 to 150 in the space of a few minutes.

 

[straitman]

If you are consistently getting that sort of 4G speed then hardly anyone is using your nodes.

I used to get "consistent" 80Mb out of 4G in my house. Now it can vary from 5 to 150 in the space of a few minutes.

Or maybe it is the obvious other option, which is that in our case it is due to the location of the tower relative to our house.

 

[whatmeworry]

Or maybe it is the obvious other option, which is that in our case it is due to the location of the tower relative to our house.

Maybe you just live in a poor area that can't afford overpriced 4G?

 

[Moindardt]

In real life, 4G was really fast until people started using it. Now it can be 5Mb one minute and 80Mb the next.

5G will be the same.

Wireless is inherently less performant, less stable and less reliable.

You can make the hero numbers look good, but you can't change physics. Meanwhile even the hero numbers are an order of magnitude or more slower.

Wow. You really think it will be better on a government controlled NBN in which most of the band width is used for streaming GOT and pr0n?? What's the contention ratio they are using? 100:1?

 

[drsmithy]

Wow. You really think it will be better on a government controlled NBN in which most of the band width is used for streaming GOT and pr0n?? What's the contention ratio they are using? 100:1?

Heh. And I get accused of political bias.

Which is it ? Government will overbuild the solution to buggery, or won't make it good enough ?

 

[straitman]

Heh. And I get accused of political bias.

Which is it ? Government will overbuild the solution to buggery, or won't make it good enough ?

From my experience having worked for Government it could be either or somewhere in the middle.

 

[drron]

I think governments initially set out to overbuild it to buggery but end up not making it good enough.
Used submarine anyone?

 

[RAM]

I think governments initially set out to overbuild it to buggery but end up not making it good enough.
Used submarine anyone?

CORRECTION

"Hardly used submarine".

Did you see the number of times that not one of the six subs was sea worthy?

I think the longest period that not one of them could put out to sea was 4 months. So on that basis the full advert should read:
"Well maintained shipping basket fleet of submarines for sale. Low mileage and no collisions. Environmentally friendly hybrids capable of zero emission operation. All offers considered (especially if willing to become a donor to all major parties)."

VERY relevant about 'donor' as major contract winner in NSW has shown.
https://www.sfo.gov.uk/press-room/l...tom-director-faces-uk-corruption-charges.aspx UK Serious Fraud Office

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...al-penalty-to-resolve-foreign-bribery-charges The FBI
The FBI revealed that in total, “Alstom paid more than $75 million to secure $4 billion in projects around the world, with a profit to the company of approximately $300 million.”

 

[Moindardt]

Heh. And I get accused of political bias.

Which is it ? Government will overbuild the solution to buggery, or won't make it good enough ?

Umm. How is this political bias??

I don't think there has ever been, in history, a government which has delivered a commercial operation at a commercially acceptable service level. I think they need to make "yes minister" compulsory viewing in school so people actually have some idea of the reality of dealing with a bureaucracy. It is as valid today as it was back then. You will see anyone who has to deal with them, cringe as they see the same meetings they just had being parodied 40 years early.

Those that do not learn history are destined to repeat it.

 

[PLANT]

It's 2016......utopia ABC is the GOTO bureaucracy program

 

[TheRealTMA]

Those that do not learn history are destined to repeat it.

You've made Australian history teachers very happy! A little OT, but the phrase is learn from history.

IMHO, those who quote this, such as politicans, never learn from previous experiences.

 

[drsmithy]

Umm. How is this political bias?? Do you even think before you make a comment or just pull out the little red book?

That would be another example.

I don't think there has ever been, in history, a government which has delivered a commercial operation at a commercially acceptable service level.

A fundamentally meaningless statement. It's not Government's job to deliver a "commercial operation", whatever that's supposed to be. Government is not a business (though hypocritically enough even most of the people who think Government is a business won't and would never let it run as one).

I think they need to make "yes minister" compulsory viewing in school so people actually have some idea of the reality of dealing with a bureaucracy.

Mmm. Maybe this needs to be compulsory viewing for the people who thinks Government delivers nothing and is a waste of time. Or maybe this compulsory reading for people who think profit above all else is a good way to run a society.

Those that do not learn history are destined to repeat it.

Yes, well, if only the people who want to financialise and privatise everything, and think letting a handful of people own everything is a good idea understood that. Maybe they could read up on Feudalism. Or Fascism. Then again they might consider those things to be desirable goals.

History repeats first as tragedy, then as farce.