NBN Discussion

Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

The NBN is the costliest high speed broadband project in the world on a per capita basis by a long way.Now sure Australia is a big country and rollout will be dearer but all the more reason to have an audited business plan which they have not done.yes they have a business plan but wont submit it to the Productivity Commission.You really do have to ask Why Not?

Have to remember the USA their wages are lower then ours.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

Forget wages. This is a flawed capex plan without a cost benefits review.

They have achieved only 10% of their stated targets in a few weeks time.

another labor lemon......


At least this one keeps the gravy train going for a long time, so the pink bat installers can get trained up :lol:
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

where is the relationship of the above with the cost of NBN? Nothing you have provide has advanced your claim.
Well you show me it isn't.
Better people than me consider the links to be evidence.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

I am sure you can use google better than I so here is how we rank for cost of service and cost of public funds per household connected-
http://royal.pingdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Broadband-prices-worldwide.pdf
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Lets take those two things separately because they show different things.

The first is the current cost of Internet access. It shows that we pay much higher that world standards for our Internet access right now - it is not a critique on the NBN, on face value it clearly demonstrates a case that there is a market failure in Australia. We can debate whether that's the fault of our geography, the fact that a privatized near monopoly (Telstra) has disproportionate pricing power or something else but it clearly shows we pay higher than we should.

The second article argues essentially the opposite. It is full of comments arguing there is no need to spend any government money because the private sector has it under control. I'm not sure you can argue both simultaneously but you're welcome to try.

As an aside it reminds me why i'm slightly skeptical of The Australian as a news source these days. It also includes this pearler of a line for what is nominally a news article "In an embarrassment to Labor, its broadband plan was ranked the world's ninth-best plan" by The Economist (whose study is the pretext for an anti NBN argument).

Ninth best plan on earth? The shame!
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

Lets take those two things separately because they show different things.

The first is the current cost of Internet access. It shows that we pay much higher that world standards for our Internet access right now - it is not a critique on the NBN, on face value it clearly demonstrates a case that there is a market failure in Australia. We can debate whether that's the fault of our geography, the fact that a privatized near monopoly (Telstra) has disproportionate pricing power or something else but it clearly shows we pay higher than we should.

The second article argues essentially the opposite. It is full of comments arguing there is no need to spend any government money because the private sector has it under control. I'm not sure you can argue both simultaneously but you're welcome to try.
So you are saying that the private sector has ramped internet prices up more than they should.

And spending a staggering amount of taxpayer money is going to make things cheaper? You know those truckloads of money the lotto companies show on television? Well, you'd need a thousand of those trucks to pay for the NBN.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

Ke? I'm sorry but I did not attend the "Monty Python School of Arguing".

Well you don't believe the NBN is the dearest per capita to roll out.I am just asking you to prove your point.
And then you can tell me why the NBN hasn't submitted it's business plan to the Productivity commission.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

Is it likely that if the Opposition win the election, the termination of the copper telephone network will not go ahead as scheduled? In my area it's supposed to happen in May 2014, but I think that may still be dependent on enough people in the area having signed up to NBN by then.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

So you are saying that the private sector has ramped internet prices up more than they should.

And spending a staggering amount of taxpayer money is going to make things cheaper? You know those truckloads of money the lotto companies show on television? Well, you'd need a thousand of those trucks to pay for the NBN.

I'm saying you can't simultaneously argue that we have among the worlds highest Internet prices and there's no market failure. You can try if you want to but it takes quite a contortionist trick.

As for the cost: connecting every almost every house and business in the country to gigabit fibre is the roughly the same cost as replacing our submarine fleet. One is an investment than will generate obvious productivity benefits a d a return on investment for years to come and leave a substantial asset on the books. The other is pure cost that will decorate in value from the moment they begin construction and will have little if any resale value.

Both may or may not justify their value to their nation. Both involve a "staggering amount of taxpayer money". Governments can and do invest on projects on a grand scale all the time and the criteria should be value not cost.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

As for the cost: connecting every almost every house and business in the country to gigabit fibre is the roughly the same cost as replacing our submarine fleet. One is an investment than will generate obvious productivity benefits a d a return on investment for years to come and leave a substantial asset on the books. The other is pure cost that will decorate in value from the moment they begin construction and will have little if any resale value.

Both may or may not justify their value to their nation. Both involve a "staggering amount of taxpayer money". Governments can and do invest on projects on a grand scale all the time and the criteria should be value not cost.
Yes, the national value of a submarine fleet is immense. A vital component of our security. We might have let our naval FW aviation skills lapse, but we've kept up our submarines.

The NBN will be used for entertainment, mostly. Paying for it will be a massive headache and there's every chance it will be obsolete before it's finished.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

The NBN will be used for entertainment, mostly. Paying for it will be a massive headache and there's every chance it will be obsolete before it's finished.

That's precisely why I don't want to be forced into it by losing my copper telephone connection in less than a year's time.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

First off a bit of a disclaimer, I haven't read the whole thread but am pro NBN, I already have it hooked up at my house and it is brilliant, but more so I believe it is a great forward thinking project for Australia.

Now one of the biggest arguments against is cost and could that money be spent better. Well have people looked back at the original copper rollout approximately 60 years ago? In today's dollars on a per capita basis the two projects, the copper rollout and the NBN rollout, are on very close terms.

The other thing is that no one 60 years ago would have imagined what we are using copper for now and I would argue that fibre will be similar. Once the fibre is in the ground over time it will be cheaper/easier to upgrade the node connection point technology as has been done with the copper network exchanges for ADSL etc.

And another thing is the continual maintenance cost of looking after a copper network that is decaying. I like the idea also of a flat wholesale rate to the market where there are now 46 at last count retailers competing on all different things be it price, quota, speed, contract terms etc.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. But I hope the liberals will have a massive rethink on their half coughd solution.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

there are now 46 at last count retailers competing on all different things be it price, quota, speed, contract terms etc.

And how many of them will fail to be competitive and go bust, leaving their customers stranded without telephone or internet?
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

Anyway that's my 2 cents. But I hope the liberals will have a massive rethink on their half coughd solution.
In the end, we live in a democracy. Labor's policies will be supported (or not) by the people when they are asked to select representatives in the national parliament.

I'm not qualified to speak on technical solutions, but I notice that Labor isn't selling the NBN on technical benefits. There's very little public discussion on those aspects. Julia Gillard's contribution has been nothing but catchphrases and personal attacks on anyone gainsaying her. We aren't making this significant national decision on solid grounds. I'm getting the feeling that Labor is pushing this as a way of buying votes on the public credit card, and it's not a good long-term vision.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

First off a bit of a disclaimer, I haven't read the whole thread but am pro NBN, I already have it hooked up at my house and it is brilliant, but more so I believe it is a great forward thinking project for Australia.

I am on the NBN too. Both at home and at work. It is the best productivity boost my work has ever had. It's probably not surprising that those of us who are connected are converts and those who are not connected are skeptical.
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

And how many of them [RSPs] will fail to be competitive and go bust,

Probably about as many as have failed to be competitive and gone bust under the current regime, which is structurally similar (in fact worse, due to anti-competitive practices) for most of the smaller players who buy wholesale ADSL access from Telstra.

leaving their customers stranded without telephone or internet?

Seriously? As has been happening for the last 15 years, if a RSP (ISP in non-NBN lingo) goes bust there will be others who want to buy their customers base and continue providing service (especially fire-sale conditions if said RSP has gone bust). And even if that somehow didn't happen, you'd be talking about a couple of days downtime, tops, for those customers to switch to another RSP of their own accord.

The NBN will be used for entertainment, mostly.

You may possibly be right in terms of volume of traffic (I really don't know), but you're completely and utterly wrong in terms of the benefits (economic, social, etc) that will flow out of it.

The NBN isn't being built so people can download movies faster - if you think it is, I'm not surprised that you're against it, but you're also forming that opinion based on incorrect fundamentals. You (genuinely) should go back and educate yourself about the benefits of ubiquitous and fast broadband - both what it delivers now, and what social and economic (and so on) benefits increased availability and speed of internet access have delivered historically. You might change your mind...

Paying for it will be a massive headache

This argument has been done to death, and based on currently known facts and best available estimates is most likely wrong. Even if you ignore any and all social, economic (etc) benefits beyond pure cost and direct revenue generated, the NBN is an investment which is budgeted to not just pay for itself, but also make an return on the money invested.

I'm sure your natural insta-response will be something along the lines of "but it's going to cost [insert far larger than budgeted figure here] and be a financial disaster". This could turn out to be true - no one can predict the future. But it's not the assumption most supported by known facts, reasonable estimates and logic at the present time, which makes it the rational-argument equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "la la la it's going to cost a fortune I can't hear you la la la".

and there's every chance it will be obsolete before it's finished.

And this argument is just 100% flat-out wrong. Incorrect, not supportable, wrongsies. Even the politics-driven (i.e. they can't support it cause it's not their policy) Libs have given up on this one as a reason to object to the NBN.

Fibre-optic cable has been the way to transmit data at high speed for the better part of 40 years. There is no technology, currently available or even [realistically] proposed, that offers a better alternative. There isn't even anything that comes close. Yes, I guess it's somewhere within the realm of possibility that sometime over the next seven years some entirely new, never before-thought-of better way of transmitting data will be discovered and commercialised, but we're talking about such an incredibly minute chance that it's not even worth considering, and to base policy / infrastructure decisions on that chance would be utter idiocy.

The NBN is the costliest high speed broadband project in the world on a per capita basis by a long way. Now sure Australia is a big country and rollout will be dearer...

You've just pointed out exactly why this is a silly argument. Australia also has one of the most geographically dispersed populations on Earth - many, many orders of magnitude more so than any other country implementing a remotely similar broadband infrastructure project.

Absolutely this makes the NBN more expensive, but if we're going to undertake a project like this in Australia it's also a fact of life, not a failing of industry or government or competition or whatever.

Are you actually critiscising the NBN. Google is rolling their system out faster and at less cost than the NBN.

See above, once again - the economics of rolling out fibre to single, densely populated cities vs 93% of the population of a country the size (and low population density) of Australia are completely and utterly different. Actually, when taking these fundamental differences into account, it really makes Google's fibre look very expensive (or the NBN's very cheap, depending on which way you want to look at it).

Its also interesting that nearly every advanced economy has had its telecommunication industry privatized with many competing private companies risking their own shareholder value in competition with each other and using a variety of different technologies.

Point out just one other country that has a similar geographical size and population density to Australia where privately owned fixed-line telecommunications competition is working on a national scale, and you can make this argument - otherwise it's just a red herring (I'll give you a hint: there aren't any).

Not to mention, we've already tried this path for the last 15 years, and it's completely failed. We don't have the infrastructure-based competition you're suggesting we should have because it's not economically viable here, and what little competition we do have has been eked out only by successive governments - Labor and Liberal - dragging a kicking and screaming Telstra along against its will. It's been a disaster, and a massive failure of competition policy (an almost universally recognised one, too).

Two questions. Whom do these retailers buy access and capacity from? What other alternative providers will there be?

Unless I am mistaken - they all will have to buy access and bandwidth from the NBN.

You are not mistaken - that's exactly how it will be. And even as a pro-NBN person, I agree that it's not ideal.

But, we simply have no other choice - as per above, fixed-line telecommunications in (most of) Australia is a natural monopoly, as there just isn't the market size or population density to make true infrastructure-based commercial competition economically viable. So one way or another we're going to end up with a monopoly, and in that case a government-owned monopoly is far more palatable option that a privately-owned one.

The last 15 years under Telstra are really the proof-in-point here - it's been an utter failure. Even most anti-NBN pundits, the Liberal party, etc, recognise this, even if they don't agree with the current government's "solution".

Or put it another way. Hypothetical - "the government recently announces a ban on commerical arlines flying from Sydney to Melbourne, only Qantas is allowed to fly this route, but you can buy a ticket SYD-MEL from any travel agent in australia that you want. Whichever you choose you will end up on the exact same Qantas aircraft."

Completely false comparison - partly because commercial competition is economically viable SYD-MEL, and partly because the comparison you've tried to draw is more akin to the current Telstra-monopoly (via market forces rather than government imposition) than the new NBN-monopoly.

It's ironic you've chosen this example, actually, given the situation on very low traffic air routes, where the government actually does restrict the available carriers and seats to ensure the route is economically viable (and hence gets serviced).
 
Re: What's your prediction on the Australian Dollar?

And how many of them will fail to be competitive and go bust, leaving their customers stranded without telephone or internet?

Which is no different to now on the current copper network so not sure what the argument is?
 
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