New a330 Angled Flat Business Class

[lovestotravel]

To state the obvious: the reason nothing is clear is because you're not actually paying any attention to the details. You're making a whole stack of assumptions based on clearly half accurate information, and then you're getting upset and demanding that VA should be doing something about X, Y, and Z when in most cases VA are very clear about their intentions to do something about them.

Your fundamental complaint that Virgin currently have an inconsistent product and it's problematic/ frustrating is true. Your assumptions that Virgin somehow aren't aware of or doing anything about it are blatantly not true. You can debate whether or not the response is adequate or timely enough and i may actually agree with you but - for whatever their faults - Virgin have actually been working to consistently improve their product and they have by and large done what they say will do.

I pay attention, but the fact remains that VA were selling J on 737-700's before too many people got upset and they then pulled it

Improving a product - Yes

But the A330 has yet another J configuration thrown into the mix to frustrate and confuse customers and staff

One thing VA is really good as its being consistent with stuff-ups!

 

[777]

I pay attention, but the fact remains that VA were selling J on 737-700's before too many people got upset and they then pulled it

Yeah, i think that was stupid. And i also think it's not a reason why they shouldn't be introducing the best possible interior on the A330 fleet that they can and that your specific gripes are clearly so all-consuming that you're becoming incapable of seeing the big picture.

Improved A330 config is good.

Improved A330 product is not a terrible example of yet more inconsistency. It's an improvement. Any airline that is improving it's product will inevitably not do the entire fleet at once. They physically can't. It's impossible if you want to stay within the bounds of commercial reality. However the alternative is stagnating product and sticking with increasingly sub-standard configurations.

I totally agree that they have stuffed up some aspects of the transition (I've cited IFE repeatedly but the initial selling 737-700s as J experiments is another example) but if you want to see the forest and not the trees the big picture is a rapid improvement across all areas of the business that has, at times, been inconsistently applied or communicated. Virgin are a better airline to fly now than 3, 6, 12 or 24 months ago and they getting better all the time in my experience.

 

[MarkD]

Correct me if Im wrong, but wouldnt it make sense for ALL the A330,s to be the same, All the 737s be the same etc, that way they go where they are needed, last minute Sub, who cares. Obviously the different types would have different seats, thats to be expected, however, its the level of product that is supplied that needs to be consistent. ERJ for example couldnt have the same seats as A330, however, all other items should be the same, and proper IFE is a must for Business class.

 

[Justchecking]

?..however, its the level of product that is supplied that needs to be consistent. ERJ for example couldnt have the same seats as A330, however, all other items should be the same, and proper IFE is a must for Business class.

This is what the whole discussion comes down to really. J class is a class of service not an aircraft type.

 

[777]

Correct me if Im wrong, but wouldnt it make sense for ALL the A330,s to be the same, All the 737s be the same etc, that way they go where they are needed, last minute Sub, who cares. Obviously the different types would have different seats, thats to be expected, however, its the level of product that is supplied that needs to be consistent. ERJ for example couldnt have the same seats as A330, however, all other items should be the same, and proper IFE is a must for Business class.

Yes it makes perfect sense.

But it can't be done immediately. Which is why virgin have announced they are doing exactly that and also why there will be a transition period while they change things over or replace new aircraft with old.

According to today's press ALL A330s will get the new configuration. Why hasn't it happened yet? Because the new product was introduced TODAY and (presumedly) they need to plan for other aircraft coming soon so they can take some out of service for a while without causing too much costs or disruption.

VA announced so long ago that I've forgotten that ALL 737 will eventually get the new J class config. Why hasn't it happened yet? Because they have a relatively small number of 737-700s that they will be getting rid of over the next year or so and 14 (or so) new BSI aircraft coming in to replace. The cost of taking a plane out of service, spending a lot of money refurbishing it etc are not justified for planes you are going to get rid of anyway. These are infamous "rogue" planes and while they handled it poorly, communicated it badly, and it no doubt sucks if you get one the logic of why won't refurb them right before they replace them makes sense.

finally, the e190s are all due to get a new J cabin in the second half of this year. I have no reason to believe they won't do anything other than do them one by one in consecutive order until they've done the whole fleet. Obviously there will be period of inconsistency while that happens but short of shutting down all E190s for a week and sending them all round the world to find hangers to do the work in simultaneously that's the price you pay for getting to the I proved product.

On the last bit about everything else being the same, it's not quite as simple as that. Different aircraft have different galleys for example, they have different costs involved in fitting certain types of IFE, etc. you cant expect the same product on a 777 as an EJet and no airline in the world does that. However, in general, I would agree the aim is to be as consistent as reasonably possible and they are clearly not there yet.

 

[tm.smile]

According to today's press ALL A330s will get the new configuration. Why hasn't it happened yet? Because the new product was introduced TODAY and (presumedly) they need to plan for other aircraft coming soon so they can take some out of service for a while without causing too much costs or disruption.

The question needs to be asked why is it taking so long. Isn't Virgin exacerbating their problems by making small changes here and there every now and then rather than starting with a CLEAR plan from the start? Yes today's announcement of the new J seat is very exciting and it looks great if it was to be used domestically, but why weren't these types of seats installed into the ex-EK A330s from the very beginning. Its not like its a brand new seat, its simply a Virginised SQ seat installed. The ex-EKs were taking out of service, had all new upholstery applied and made over, that a little more time and effort could ensure that those planes won't now have to go back into the hangar to be refitted?

As for the 737-800/700 inconsistencies, don't market J class as available on ALL major routes and manage the expectations of the customer. Can they not limit it to capital cities and major metropolitan areas first and ensure that those flights are flown with planes equipped with what is being marketed and sold.

At the end of the day, there are many great things that Virgin promises, but I believe they haven't been launched in a sensible manner as there are far too many caveats for what is being offered (fare class entitlements, velocity stipulations, length of flight time, time of flight departure, plane type and so on). Keep to the old saying - under promise, over deliver.

 

[markis10]

I think you are seeing too much of a change, rather than a case of too slow a change with the comment "why is it taking so long", how many other airlines have gone from a LCC in this manner, game changes take time, come at a cost and mistakes happen.

 

[tm.smile]

Perhaps it is many small changes and too many different things being introduced every now and then.

 

[amaroo]

TBF, most airlines suffer the same pain when implementing something new or refurbishing something old.

Take a look at FT BAEC forum and you will see a scathing and very long critique on how not to do a new F cabin rollout.

QF is the same with their F & J product on A380 compared with 747 & A330 - watch the threads turn red hot when a A380 is subbed with a 747!

Changing is hard - thats why very few businesses or individuals actually do it.

 

[Noob]

The question needs to be asked why is it taking so long. Isn't Virgin exacerbating their problems by making small changes here and there every now and then rather than starting with a CLEAR plan from the start?

A company no matter the industry would never disclose information which it sees as sensitive - The reality is VAH is a publicly listed company and simply are not going to lay out all their cards on the table for every competitor in Australia and the world to see.

 

[777]

The question needs to be asked why is it taking so long.

My entire post was an attempt to answer that question. Did you not read or were you not convinced?

Virgin has had a domestic business class for THREE MONTHS.

I do agree there has been an element of over promise then under deliver but three months is nothing compared to the length of time Qantas promoted priority boarding and didn't do it or the YEARS Qantas has had (and still do i think) rogue 737s going around with no proper J class cabin.

 

[tm.smile]

My entire post was an attempt to answer that question. Did you not read or were you not convinced?

Virgin has had a domestic business class for THREE MONTHS.

I do agree there has been an element of over promise then under deliver but three months is nothing compared to the length of time Qantas promoted priority boarding and didn't do it or the YEARS Qantas has had (and still do i think) rogue 737s going around with no proper J class cabin.

DJ actually has had Domestic business since May last year...albeit Coast-Coast (this did include some 737s)

Perception of the time it is taking is made worse because there are no definitive dates... its all just: end of 2012, soon, later this year and so on. Your post quoted all the time frames, but they are vague, people like more defined time frames...

@Noob As for laying out their business plan, I'm not saying that they should say, here is what we've got planned, have a look and go to town. I'm saying they themselves need to have a clear plan and perhaps plan for a more efficient change over. Perhaps they didnt know they were going to install SQ seats on their factory fresh A330s (not at all likely). But why introduce one thing into the market, only to introduce something else a short time down the track. The consumer gets confused.

QF certainly isn't perfect, theres a reason why there are 178 pages dedicated just to priority boarding (at least they consistently do it badly...). And they for one need to streamline their own J class cabins. Millenium, dreamtime, convertible, skybed I and II, and the new next gen 737 seat. Talk about confused!

 

[muppet]

Perhaps they didnt know they were going to install SQ seats on their factory fresh A330s (not at all likely). But why introduce one thing into the market, only to introduce something else a short time down the track. The consumer gets confused.

It was the seats they came with from EK - they're moving from a LCC, they aren't made of money!

QF certainly isn't perfect, ...... And they for one need to streamline their own J class cabins. Millenium, dreamtime, convertible, skybed I and II, and the new next gen 737 seat. Talk about confused!

You're forgetting the new A332 seats that are the int PE seats.

M

 

[Mh4k]

Virgin introduces the best domestic aircraft fit-out in the country in the clearest sign yet that they are failing.

 

[amaroo]

If you could put this thread into a song....I think this one would suit the bill - Ain't No Way(Glee.S02.EP17.Neglect.Night) on Vimeo

The words seem to sum it all up

 

[777]

Virgin introduces the best domestic aircraft fit-out in the country in the clearest sign yet that they are failing.

But it's inconsistent!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lovestotravel]

Virgin introduces the best domestic aircraft fit-out in the country in the clearest sign yet that they are failing.

1 aircraft out of how many they have ?

Granted it's a great set-up, and by the end of 2013 it appears they will have 6 of these aircraft, which is great, it just makes the difference between the 737 and 330's huge!

It just feels the J product on the 737's are a little underwhelming in comparison!

 

[markis10]

1 aircraft out of how many they have ?

Granted it's a great set-up, and by the end of 2013 it appears they will have 6 of these aircraft, which is great, it just makes the difference between the 737 and 330's huge!

It just feels the J product on the 737's are a little underwhelming in comparison!

They have two, XFC is in MEL already while the coverage in France was for XFD.

 

[Justchecking]

It just feels the J product on the 737's are a little underwhelming in comparison!

And thats all anybody was ever saying. If you don't fly an A330 route the contents of this aircraft makes no difference to you. All the complaints and comments on this site all allude to the class of service being offered across the fleet as 'J' ranges from meeting expectations to falling well below it. No-one is saying put an A330 seat in an eJet. What they have said is, make the service on 737s & eJets in the same class. Not compared to A330s, but compared to what you get in Y on the same aircraft. By all accounts (according to the trip reports posted on this site) the difference in Y & J on an A330 is massive, while the difference in Y & J on a 737 for example is not to the same degree and even less so on an eJet.

 

[777]

DJ actually has had Domestic business since May last year...albeit Coast-Coast (this did include some 737s)

It's worth remembering that it took some time for the implementation of Coast to Coast to smooth itself but seems to have done so now that it's a mature product.