Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[drsmithy]

If I misunderstood you, then please explain.

My perception is that Tony Abbott destroyed two Prime Ministers. By highlighting their failures, leading to a loss of popularity in their governments. As the polls clearly show. Let's face it, Malcolm Turnbull wasn't doing anything to dent Rudd. Swap in Abbott and Rudd begins sinking.

Same thing with Gillard. Abbott highlights her failures and she loses popularity. In a very spectacular fashion.

Are you saying that Abbott had nothing to do with it and that Labor destroyed itself twice over?

Handy to know you think the country should be run based on a popularity contest and who can sling the most mud. Helps to put things in perspective.

 

[Skyring]

Handy to know you think the country should be run based on a popularity contest and who can sling the most mud. Helps to put things in perspective.

LOL! Nah, I just believe in democracy.

As for popularity, no amount of media releases, publicity stunts and mud-slinging will take the place of good government. Do the right things and popularity will follow.

 

[drsmithy]

LOL! Nah, I just believe in democracy.

As for popularity, no amount of media releases, publicity stunts and mud-slinging will take the place of good government. Do the right things and popularity will follow.

Rubbish. Indeed, the right thing to do is often deeply unpopular because it's not easy (and vice versa).

 

[BadgerBoi]

Handy to know you think the country should be run based on a popularity contest and who can sling the most mud. Helps to put things in perspective.

There's always an alternative view that, come election day, we won't need to go to the polls, we'll just have to ask Anthony Green to interview Tom Waterhouse to announce the winner based on his odds.

 

[drron]

Looks like I gave you too much credit. Try reading comprehension before asking ludicrous questions that have nothing to do with what I wrote.

I can see where both you and Skyring are coming from.You are talking about two different things.
I also know you read into my musings things I have never imagined.
Now I also know it isn't because you glow green in the dark so I just put it down to your Queensland Schooling.

 

[Skyring]

Rubbish. Indeed, the right thing to do is often deeply unpopular because it's not easy.

Sorry, I don't follow this. The difficulty of an action doesn't correlate with its popularity. In fact, the most difficult actions are often the most widely acclaimed.

If a thing is unpopular but needed for good government, then it means that the thing hasn't been presented well. People aren't stupid; if they know the facts, then they will follow the logic.

My point about popularity is that good government, like wise leadership or a good safety record or whatever will bring about its own popularity. That's what democracy boils down to in respect to government, after all. In aviation terms an airline can be as cheap or as luxurious as it wants, but if its planes crash too often, it won't have too many passengers choosing it, thank you Rain Man.

 

[Skyring]

There's always an alternative view that, come election day, we won't need to go to the polls, we'll just have to ask Anthony Green to interview Tom Waterhouse to announce the winner based on his odds.

I remember a science fiction story based on a similar premise. With polls becoming increasingly accurate at picking the results, sample sizes becoming smaller, the supposedly logical extension of this was that if you were good enough, you only needed a sample size of one very carefully chosen person.

Who was The Voter and got to determine the result without the need for an expensive election.

Not my preferred situation, even if it was me making the decision. I very much prefer everybody getting an equal vote and then tallying up the totals.

 

[drsmithy]

Sorry, I don't follow this. The difficulty of an action doesn't correlate with its popularity. In fact, the most difficult actions are often the most widely acclaimed.

In a historic context, with the benefit of hindsight, this is true.. In the short term, however, hard but right works are usually incredibly unpopular.

An example would be the treatment of real estate in Australia.

Howard & Costello helped fuel the last 10-15 years of frenzied speculation in real estate with their tax changes (in particular, the halving of capital gains tax). This was immensely popular, since it allowed people to facilitate "equity mate" and use their unearned wealth to go out and buy cars, jetskis, and overseas holidays, while a) digging themselves deeper and deeper into debt and b) hanging a giant albatross around the neck of Australia's economy.

The "right" thing to do would be to make real estate as cheap as possible, and use the tax system to punish rent-seekers and others in search of unproductive and unearned wealth (eg: by getting rid of negative gearing, and having punishingly high CGT for short-term holders). However, it would be deeply, deeply unpopular since a) a whole bunch of people who currently think themselves "rich" would find they are not, and b) they might actually have to go out and do some real, productive work.

Now, would doing this be popular eventually, over the long run, once even people on minimum wage could afford to buy their own home ? Sure. But during the transition period someone like Tony Abbot would be spreading as much fear, uncertainty and doubt as was humanly possible, accusations of wealth destruction would be flying left, right and centre, and people like you would be cheering him along.

If a thing is unpopular but needed for good government, then it means that the thing hasn't been presented well. People aren't stupid; if they know the facts, then they will follow the logic.

Well "knowing the facts" is one of the problems, innit ? After all, just look at how many people think the carbon tax is why their electricity bills have gone up 50% (or whatever it is).

Further, it's quite possible for a "right" thing to be unpopular in the short term, yet considered completely differently in the long term. The ending of slavery in the US South, for example.

My point about popularity is that good government, like wise leadership or a good safety record or whatever will bring about its own popularity. That's what democracy boils down to in respect to government, after all. In aviation terms an airline can be as cheap or as luxurious as it wants, but if its planes crash too often, it won't have too many passengers choosing it, thank you Rain Man.

When people choose the wrong airline it only affects them. When people chose the wrong Government, it affects everyone. Treating refugees like lepers and homosexuals like second-class citizens isn't "right", but it sure does seem to be "popular". Policy shouldn't be decided by popularity.

 

[medhead]

Um, I don't think there has been any recent case of a Liberal senator being convicted of shoplifting. Perhaps you'd like to check your facts?
]

And you just prove my point about your failure to apply you flip test. Instead of acknowledging the vastly different response to Mary Jo Fisher by the ALP, you instead obscure with distraction. The treatment of Mary Jo Fisher in her problems is an excellent example of how to not form a lynch mob. Compare and contrast with the leader of your lynch mob. Innocent until proven guilty, a quaint concept that seems to be foreign to some.

 

[drron]

And you just prove my point about your failure to apply you flip test. Instead of acknowledging the vastly different response to Mary Jo Fisher by the ALP, you instead obscure with distraction. The treatment of Mary Jo Fisher in her problems is an excellent example of how to not form a lynch mob. Compare and contrast with the leader of your lynch mob. Innocent until proven guilty, a quaint concept that seems to be foreign to some.

Not the way Mary Jo sees it-
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

FORMER South Australian Liberal senator Mary Jo Fisher says Labor's decision to compare her minor shoplifting charges to the alleged misdemeanours of Craig Thomson -- who is facing charges of fraud and misappropriating union funds on prostitutes and holidays -- shows how low the party was prepared to stoop to deflect negative publicity.

 

[medhead]

I can see where both you and Skyring are coming from.You are talking about two different things.
I also know you read into my musings things I have never imagined.
Now I also know it isn't because you glow green in the dark so I just put it down to your Queensland Schooling.

Do you think the instability in the Gillard government that lead to her demise was caused by Abbott with things like stop the boats; or by a three year vendetta waged an egotistical maniac?

And before anyone asks I'm not saying Abbott is the egotistical maniac!

Edit: as for my schooling. What's wrong with having "beach" as a subject? What's wrong with one day a month on the reef? There should be more of it, I say. I had the finest education Joh would buy me!

 

[medhead]

Not the way Mary Jo sees it-
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Yeah buy she is a delusional, depressive - self admitted.

Seriously the ALP didn't link the crimes but compared their respect for her to enjoy due process and to not name her versus the naming of Thomson by the Abbott lynch mob.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Not the way Mary Jo sees it-
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Ah yes, Mary Jo Fisher, the calm and rational voice of Australian politics...

 

[Pukka]

Rubbish. Indeed, the right thing to do is often deeply unpopular because it's not easy (and vice versa).

So who determines what is "the right thing to do" because I'm guessing that your idea of "the right thing to do" is not universally accepted by all on this forum or indeed in Australia. It's just your opinion.

That's why we all get vote its an opportunity to voice our opinion.

 

[drron]

twice? You give Abbott too much credit. Gillard was was an own goal, booted by Rudd.

Do you think the instability in the Gillard government that lead to her demise was caused by Abbott with things like stop the boats; or by a three year vendetta waged an egotistical maniac?

And before anyone asks I'm not saying Abbott is the egotistical maniac!

Edit: as for my schooling. What's wrong with having "beach" as a subject? What's wrong with one day a month on the reef? There should be more of it, I say. I had the finest education Joh would buy me!

Maybe you would like to make it clear just why Julia's Government was unstable.

 

[drron]

Yeah buy she is a delusional, depressive - self admitted.

Seriously the ALP didn't link the crimes but compared their respect for her to enjoy due process and to not name her versus the naming of Thomson by the Abbott lynch mob.

Ah yes, Mary Jo Fisher, the calm and rational voice of Australian politics...

Having depression doesn't make you delusional.

And dont you fellows say how caring our Government is and praise the NDIS but anyone with mental illness is not to be believed is the implication of your posts?
And you accuse us right wing nutters of personal abuse.
Shame on you.

 

[Moody]

Having depression doesn't make you delusional.

And dont you fellows say how caring our Government is and praise the NDIS but anyone with mental illness is not to be believed is the implication of your posts?
And you accuse us right wing nutters of personal abuse.
Shame on you.

There were warning signs that MJF was bipolar or at the very least unstable - unfortunately she was not given the care she needed until it was too late. Not sure what the relevance to anything else is .....

 

[drsmithy]

So who determines what is "the right thing to do" [...]

History usually provides the best judgement.

because I'm guessing that your idea of "the right thing to do" is not universally accepted by all on this forum or indeed in Australia. It's just your opinion.

Probably.

That's why we all get vote its an opportunity to voice our opinion.

And that still doesn't automatically make them right. If everyone voted for the "Women out of the workplace and back in the home" party, that wouldn't make disenfranchising people based on the gender right.

 

[drron]

There were warning signs that MJF was bipolar or at the very least unstable - unfortunately she was not given the care she needed until it was too late. Not sure what the relevance to anything else is .....

So read the families account-


http://beginrant.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/senator-mary-jo-fisher-australia-does-not-know-what-it-has-lost-2/#more-1066


She is back in full time employment.So not treated too late.She did not have signs of depression when she was first elected.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Having depression doesn't make you delusional.

And dont you fellows say how caring our Government is and praise the NDIS but anyone with mental illness is not to be believed is the implication of your posts?
And you accuse us right wing nutters of personal abuse.
Shame on you.

Please don't bother to patronise me. Somebody cited Mary Jo Fisher, it really was ridiculous to use her as an example or a comparison to, well, to anything. The woman was a train wreck, and that's a fact, it's not personal abuse.