Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[Pukka]

How will you go in the mini budget to fix Wayne's 2 month old last hurrah? His last Budget was probably his worst.
I think they need to raise quite a bit and we are all in the new Treasurers sight. Your share of the pain is...............

.............too much.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Those same small business owners would always think that Labor is the worst thing that happened to the country no matter what was going on. It's better than accepting their own failure to run a business properly.

Spoken like someone who has never run a business in their life.

With constantly changing tax laws, industrial relations laws, regulation, red tape, it is no walk in the park as far left socialists seem to think.

At the end of the day, small business owners like me employ half the population.

Have some respect for people who believe in themselves enough to actually take a risk in life, rather than sit on the sidelines doing nothing and let some union thug try to get them 10% more when often they deserve 10% less.

 

[drron]

The point I was trying to make was the last time Abbott and co used an accounting firm the numbers were buggered up massively and now they are saying they can't trust treasury again and won't be relying on their numbers this time around either. Why is that? Skyring nailed it when he suggested it looks like they have something to hide. It doesn't matter what the reality is, it is not a good look unless the first time you used an accounting firm the numbers were correct.

My point was the treasury was 7 billion wrong on their surplus whilst the accounting firm as viewed by treasury was 8 billion wrong.Not a significant difference between the 2 when we are talking about a budget of ~300 billion.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Spoken like someone who has never run a business in their life.

With constantly changing tax laws, industrial relations laws, regulation, red tape, it is no walk in the park as far left socialists seem to think.

At the end of the day, small business owners like me employ half the population.

Have some respect for people who believe in themselves enough to actually take a risk in life, rather than sit on the sidelines doing nothing and let some union thug try to get them 10% more when often they deserve 10% less.

You should have actually read my comment before you become hysterical about what you thought I wrote. Those same business owners does not mean nor imply all small business owners. There are always going to be people who fail who will blame anyone but themselves.

 

[drsmithy]

Spoken like someone who has never run a business in their life.

With constantly changing tax laws, industrial relations laws, regulation, red tape, it is no walk in the park as far left socialists seem to think.

At the end of the day, small business owners like me employ half the population.

Have some respect for people who believe in themselves enough to actually take a risk in life, rather than sit on the sidelines doing nothing and let some union thug try to get them 10% more when often they deserve 10% less.

Yeah, that unionised 7%ish of the privately-employed workforce (mostly in relatively low-paying jobs) sure is killing small business.

You guys need to find another boogyman. Teh Union thugz! is so 1990s.

 

[HarryB]

My point was the treasury was 7 billion wrong on their surplus whilst the accounting firm as viewed by treasury was 8 billion wrong.Not a significant difference between the 2 when we are talking about a budget of ~300 billion.

I agree with that, however if neither forecast is correct and you publicly state you don't trust treasury then what do you do if you end up in government? And if they are both wrong why the need to employ an outside firm to get their wrong forecast? Is it because it suits their agenda better?

It's not a good look especially when at some stage it's likely the people slagging off treasury are going to have to have the opposite opinion if they are governing the country.

 

[eastwest101]

Yeah, that unionised 7%ish of the privately-employed workforce (mostly in relatively low-paying jobs) sure is killing small business.

You guys need to find another boogyman.

According to the ABS union membership in Australia is 13% in the private sector vs 43% in the public sector. Union membership aside for a different debate - you ignored ComeFlyWithMe 's point about the increasing amount of regulation and we can all agree that regulation has increased, and we are seeing more overlap and duplicaton between state and federal govenments, not less.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Yeah, that unionised 7%ish of the privately-employed workforce (mostly in relatively low-paying jobs) sure is killing small business.

You guys need to find another boogyman. Teh Union thugz! is so 1990s.

Not to mention that those evil unionists are required to eat the boss' firstborn for breakfast...

 

[BadgerBoi]

According to the ABS union membership in Australia is 13% in the private sector vs 43% in the public sector. Union membership aside for a different debate - you ignored ComeFlyWithMe 's point about the increasing amount of regulation and we can all agree that regulation has increased, and we are seeing more overlap and duplicaton between state and federal govenments, not less.

Just because you are uncomfortable about discussing unions doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in a discussion about Australian politics. That would just be arrogance.

 

[eastwest101]

Just because you are uncomfortable about discussing unions doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in a discussion about Australian politics. That would just be arrogance.

Actually I just provided additional information to the % of unionized workforce in Australia compared to the figure that drsmithy provided.

Possibly I expressed myself poorly but I was trying to say that everyone can and will have a different opinion about unions and of course we are all free to talk about them and I agree that unions can and often are a part of discussion in politics, and I don't have a problem with that at all.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Actually I just provided additional information to the % of unionized workforce in Australia compared to the figure that drsmithy provided.

Possibly I expressed myself poorly but I was trying to say that everyone can and will have a different opinion about unions and of course we are all free to talk about them and I agree that unions can and often are a part of discussion in politics, and I don't have a problem with that at all.

I agree, and support unions who support low paid workers who don't have much sway with large corporations. Generally however, I'd like to think IR in this country has moved on.

Regardless, my point about unions was more in regard to some of the far left diatribe appearing in this thread. And the thugs are still there, and usually out front. Some of them now wear a suit and have joined the Labor caucus.

Small business is struggling due to the inflexibility of the Fair Work Act - a union constructed piece of rubbish, which not only punishes small businesses who rely on short casual shifts, but also the people who want to actually do the work, add to that a carbon tax, a failure of Labor state governments to properly regulate the electricity industry, constant changes to the taxation and super systems every financial year, and a generally depressed business and consumer sentiment due to the unpredictability and lack of confidence in the current federal government.

It is very easy for those in their cushy, zero responsibility jobs to criticise small business owners without any idea of the risks, challenges and sacrifices that are made by them.

There are 'dodgy operators' in small business as there are in large corporations, unions and government. Proportions may vary, but I'd suggest the proportion is much higher in the latter few.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

You should have actually read my comment before you become hysterical about what you thought I wrote. Those same business owners does not mean nor imply all small business owners. There are always going to be people who fail who will blame anyone but themselves.

I've read your comments. The tone is clear.

So you've run a business yourself, making you highly qualified to judge others who do? You have no idea of the risks involved.

The same blame transfer occurs in government, unions and large corporations too.

The next generation has a zero responsibility, entitlement mentality. Luckily there are people who still believe that the individual is responsible for their own individual outcomes.

 

[drsmithy]

I agree, and support unions who support low paid workers who don't have much sway with large corporations. Generally however, I'd like to think IR in this country has moved on.

Regardless, my point about unions was more in regard to some of the far left diatribe appearing in this thread. And the thugs are still there, and usually out front. Some of them now wear a suit and have joined the Labor caucus.

What "far left diatribe" ?

"Far left" is things like compulsory unionism, nationalisation of industry, centralised wage controls, and the like. I haven't seen anyone yet advocating anything even remotely close to "far left".

Small business is struggling due to the inflexibility of the Fair Work Act - a union constructed piece of rubbish, which not only punishes small businesses who rely on short casual shifts, but also the people who want to actually do the work,

Meanwhile, from the employee perspective, underemployment is high and job security is low.
What's the minimum shift under FWA ?

add to that a carbon tax,

Quite possibly the biggest anti-climax in recent history...

a failure of Labor state governments to properly regulate the electricity industry,

Aren't regulations bad ?

constant changes to the taxation and super systems every financial year, and a generally depressed business and consumer sentiment due to the unpredictability and lack of confidence in the current federal government.

"Depressed business and consumer sentiment" has nothing to do with "the unpredictability and lack of confidence in the current federal government". It's to do with a slowing economy, the rest of the world in a recession, high real estate prices sucking money out of disposable wages, and the aforementioned underemployment and lack of job security.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have employees with unpredictable, short-term shifts, but also have them willing to go out and spend money willy-nilly. If you want people to be willing to spend, they need to have some confidence their incomes aren't going to disappear (or vary dramatically) at the daily whim of their employer.

No-one is not shopping because they're wondering whether the next Government will be team red or team blue. They're saving because they can see the oncoming tidal wave and know that their jobs, incomes and livelihoods haven't been less secure for decades.

It is very easy for those in their cushy, zero responsibility jobs to criticise small business owners without any idea of the risks, challenges and sacrifices that are made by them.

Because it's not like workers have to worry about whether or not they'll be able to buy food or pay the rent, right ?

Business owners have been doing quite well for themselves. The share of GDP going to profit has been trending strongly upwards for decades, while labour share has been going down (a trend that, unsurprisingly, correlates across the world fairly strongly with falling unionism rates).

There are 'dodgy operators' in small business as there are in large corporations, unions and government. Proportions may vary, but I'd suggest the proportion is much higher in the latter few.

What's a "dodgy operator" supposed to be ?

 

[drsmithy]

According to the ABS union membership in Australia is 13% in the private sector vs 43% in the public sector.

Yep, true. I did Google for it beforehand but didn't verify the number from multiple sources. I suspect I may have picked up an American stat by mistake.

Regardless, even at 13%, private sector unionism rates are low, and it's largely in the lower-paid end of the scale (hospitality, childcare).

Union membership aside for a different debate - you ignored ComeFlyWithMe 's point about the increasing amount of regulation and we can all agree that regulation has increased, and we are seeing more overlap and duplicaton between state and federal govenments, not less.

Most regulations tend to be "written in blood", and exist because some non-trivial number of people have previously demonstrated an inability to control themselves.
The overlap in state and federal governments is appearing because of state government incompetence.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Meanwhile, from the employee perspective, underemployment is high and job security is low.

Hate to tell you that unemployment at 5.7% is low by global and Australian historical standards.

"Depressed business and consumer sentiment" has nothing to do with "the unpredictability and lack of confidence in the current federal government". It's to do with a slowing economy, the rest of the world in a recession, high real estate prices sucking money out of disposable wages, and the aforementioned underemployment and lack of job security.

I think you are delusional if you think confidence in the government doesn't affect business and consumer confidence. On the business side, how can you make long term investment decisions with constantly moving goalposts from the government? Of course there are a multitude of factors but to dismiss the government's impact is naive at best.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have employees with unpredictable, short-term shifts, but also have them willing to go out and spend money willy-nilly. If you want people to be willing to spend, they need to have some confidence their incomes aren't going to disappear (or vary dramatically) at the whim of their employer.

Tell that to students who can only do 2-3 hour shifts to fit with their studies (and want to do them) yet 4 hours is the legislated minimum, so business owners can't give them those shifts.

Business owners have been doing quite well for themselves. The share of GDP going to profit has been trending strongly upwards for decades, while labour share has been going down (a trend that, unsurprisingly, correlates across the world fairly strongly with falling unionism rates).

Yes, look at all those businesses closing their doors, they're doing really well for themselves and the economy considering those they employed are now out of a job.

What's a "dodgy operator" supposed to be ?

Anyone who engages in fraudulent or otherwise illegal conduct.

 

[drsmithy]

Hate to tell you that unemployment at 5.7% is low by global and Australian historical standards.

I said underemployment. People who want to work more but can't. A far more useful measurement than the absurd unemployment percentage, where an hour of work a week counts as "employed".

I think you are delusional if you think confidence in the government doesn't affect business and consumer confidence. On the business side, how can you make long term investment decisions with constantly moving goalposts from the government? Of course there are a multitude of factors but to dismiss the government's impact is naive at best.

For all the jawboning and rhetoric, you can barely see daylight between the economic policies of Liberals and Labor.

Tell that to students who can only do 2-3 hour shifts to fit with their studies (and want to do them) yet 4 hours is the legislated minimum, so business owners can't give them those shifts.

The point remains. If you want to be able to only give people a few hours work at a time with low pay and no security, then they're going to be tight-fisted. You can't want people to have less job security, then lament when they behave like people with no job security.

Yes, look at all those businesses closing their doors, they're doing really well for themselves and the economy considering those they employed are now out of a job.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Businesses have had a fantastic run for 20-odd years with pretty much everything going their way. No-one with an ounce of common sense should have expected it to last forever.

Anyone who engages in fraudulent or otherwise illegal conduct.

Then I think you're drawing a rather long bow.

 

[Skyring]

I agree, and support unions who support low paid workers who don't have much sway with large corporations.

The hospital cleaners and kitchenhands covered by the Health Services Union spring to mind here.

 

[Skyring]

What's a "dodgy operator" supposed to be ?

Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Adventure Enterprises springs to mind.

 

[amaroo]

The hospital cleaners and kitchenhands covered by the Health Services Union spring to mind here.

Pity the CC policy was poor - just like the members!

However, they did have best colour brochures - members blood, sweat and LABOR could buy:evil:

 

[11sjw]

Yeah, that unionised 7%ish of the privately-employed workforce (mostly in relatively low-paying jobs) sure is killing small business.

You guys need to find another boogyman. Teh Union thugz! is so 1990s.

Deal with the CFMEU much?