Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[serfty]

Do you understand how the democratic process works? The candidates announce policies, the policies are costed etc. The candidates state their manifesto, to tell the vote what is being offered. That is the evidence that is provided to the voter. They DO NOT have to have done the job to be judged by this process.

The natural implication of your view that having never done the job we don't know what PM Abbott stand for, is even more reason to not vote for him. If that is truly what you believe.
....

Evaluation of policy is important for a truly swinging voter (the 5%), not just what the policies are but whether they are achivable or perchance even carried out.

Another important part is comparing a candidate with a "track record" against one without - if the "track record" is considered poor by the voter then the candidate without may be preferable, but that is up to the voter.

... By you continued support for Abbott you are supporting his PPL.

Sometimes, like "preferential voting" it can come down to the "least worst" option - a voter may select a candidate, even though they might not agree with all their policies.

 

[Skyring]

Do you understand how the democratic process works? The candidates announce policies, the policies are costed etc. The candidates state their manifesto, to tell the vote what is being offered. That is the evidence that is provided to the voter. They DO NOT have to have done the job to be judged by this process.

The natural implication of your view that having never done the job we don't know what PM Abbott stand for, is even more reason to not vote for him. If that is truly what you believe.

As for your LSL analogy. Your are clearly getting confused between the entire community and taxpayers. The enitre community pays for LSL as you describe. Taxpayers are a subset of the entire community. No taxpayers do not bear the full cost of LSL, unlike for abbott's PPL.

By you continued support for Abbott you are supporting his PPL.

No. You are wrong. I do not support the PPL policy. Kindly get that notion right out of your mind.

Nor am I more than lukewarm on Tony Abbott. The big point of difference between he and Rudd is that he doesn't display the poor leadership, horrid personality, and downright incompetence on offer from Rudd.

We've seen Rudd's performance in office. He talks a lot and does little. We gave him a go. Clearly you don't think people should be given a go.

The big thing about politicians - all politicians - is that they promise a lot, but we don't know how those promises will stack up. Or, contrariwise, we have doubts beforehand but in office the candidate shines. Bob Hawke springs to mind here. He became Prime Minister very quickly and absolutely revelled in the job.

We just don't know for certain.

With Rudd and Labor, we can judge on the record. It's not a very impressive record.

Of course Abbott is not an unknown. We're not leaping into the dark here, but we can't judge him on his Prime Ministerial record. Because he hasn't bloody got one, has he?

By your apparent logic, no Opposition Leader can become Prime Minister. Clearly not the case.

As for LSL, you miss the point I specifically asked you about. Read back, please, and have another shot.

 

[medhead]

To some degree, yes. My understanding is the Greens believe immigration policy should prioritise humanitarian and family reunion type immigration.

Which makes the Greens economically irresponsible. It speaks volumes that the Greens support Abbott's PPL policy

Evaluation of policy is important for a truly swinging voter (the 5%), not just what the policies are but whether they are achivable or perchance even carried out.

Another important part is comparing a candidate with a "track record" against one without - if the "track record" is considered poor by the voter then the candidate without may be preferable, but that is up to the voter.

Sometimes, like "preferential voting" it can come down to the "least worst" option - a voter may select a candidate, even though they might not agree with all their policies.

Which is the reason for my question. What make Abbott the least worst option. His platform to date is an economic nightmare, as costed by the Murdoch press - meaning there is no room for claims of bias. He has opposed all moves by the current government to cut spending on middle class welfare. He wants to massively expand middle class welfare. He is proposing to expand spend by approximately 100% over the ALP's plans on 2 measures costed by the The Australian. There are a number of people in this thread that have repeated stated that deficit is their key, and only, metric for judging government performance. Yet when asked outright to explain their continued support for the coalition whose spending plans are a massive threat to the budget deficit, they choose to accuse the person asking the question of being a loony leftie.

It is a very simple question. Given Abbott's out of control spending plans what is abbott offering that buys their continued support, despite the massive threat to the budget deficit? (I don't expect an answer, perhaps more wild accusations)

 

[medhead]

By your apparent logic, no Opposition Leader can become Prime Minister. Clearly not the case.

That's actually based on your position that it is impossible to vote for someone who has never done the job. That's your position.

As for LSL, you miss the point I specifically asked you about. Read back, please, and have another shot.

I'm not reading back anything. It is an utterly ridiculous analogy. LSL is 100% paid by the employer. PPL will be 100% paid by the taxpayer. I completely object to paying for some high income earner to have a baby that they can afford to pay for themselves. The policy stinks to high heaven, the fact that Abbott's policies are otherwise the same as the ALP, I fail to see how he offers a viable alternative.

(BTW this is a comment about abbott, it is not a comment in support of the other side.)

 

[serfty]

....

It is a very simple question. Given Abbott's out of control spending plans what is abbott offering that buys their continued support, despite the massive threat to the budget deficit? (I don't expect an answer, perhaps more wild accusations)

that implies I have made wild accusations in the first place...

 

[Skyring]

That's actually based on your position that it is impossible to vote for someone who has never done the job. That's your position.

LOL! No. You've got that completely wrong. What do you think I mean when I talk about giving someone a go?

Some advice here. Close your eyes, settle back in your chair, let the tension go from your body. Count to ten, one count per out breath as you let the tension leave you. When you get to ten, start over. Just let your thoughts settle. Rest in the moment.

 

[amaroo]

that implies I have made wild accusations in the first place...

It's open season on anyone that dares to post an article, graph or view that differs to a tiny minority here.

The level of aggression, abuse, insults and outright disgraceful posts has risen in line with Rudds drop in the polls.

 

[Moody]

It's open season on anyone that dares to post an article, graph or view that differs to a tiny minority here.

The level of aggression, abuse, insults and outright disgraceful posts has risen in line with Rudds drop in the polls.

If you read Medhead's post more closely you will come to the opinion that he was not accusing Serfty of making wild accusations and breath-taking hypocrisy. I believe he had other posters in mind ....

Could you give some examples of these disgraceful posts - I'm sure the moderators would step in if someone was being unfairly vilified.

 

[amaroo]

Could you give some examples of these disgraceful posts

Go and take a look in that mirror!

 

[medhead]

that implies I have made wild accusations in the first place...

I see you conveniently left out the bit where I wrote "other people" from your quote. I don't know about you but when I reply to someone and I write other people or others that does not mean the person to whom I have replied.

It's open season on anyone that dares to post an article, graph or view that differs to a tiny minority here.

The level of aggression, abuse, insults and outright disgraceful posts has risen in line with Rudds drop in the polls.

Interesting that anyone who challenges your hero is being abusive. I've posed a very simple question, that's not abuse. Noting your failure to answer the question is also not abuse. Of course one of your little mates likes to call people loony when the failures of their hero are mentioned. That is abuse. Still I wouldn't expect you to notice, in the same way you don't seem notice your emperor's lack of clothes.

 

[medhead]

Go and take a look in that mirror!

Seems the only abuses around here is from the liberals at anyone who dares to point out their obvious faults. Go off and have your little group think love in. Truly pathetic the way you rusted on coalition voters claim to be open minded.

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[serfty]

I see you conveniently left out the bit where I wrote "other people" from your quote. I don't know about you but when I reply to someone and I write other people or others that does not mean the person to whom I have replied.....

You quoted two members in that post, and the paragraph with the word wild was under your quote of my post. How could I otherwise read it.

As for my post you quoted I'll add this, one of the 5% is likely to take past hands on performance into account when considering how to vote.

 

[medhead]

Which is the reason for my question. What make Abbott the least worst option. His platform to date is an economic nightmare, as costed by the Murdoch press - meaning there is no room for claims of bias. He has opposed all moves by the current government to cut spending on middle class welfare. He wants to massively expand middle class welfare. He is proposing to expand spend by approximately 100% over the ALP's plans on 2 measures costed by the The Australian. There are a number of people in this thread that have repeated stated that deficit is their key, and only, metric for judging government performance. Yet when asked outright to explain their continued support for the coalition whose spending plans are a massive threat to the budget deficit, they choose to accuse the person asking the question of being a loony leftie.

It is a very simple question. Given Abbott's out of control spending plans what is abbott offering that buys their continued support, despite the massive threat to the budget deficit? (I don't expect an answer, perhaps more wild accusations)

Here is the whole quote Serfty. I have not asked the question of you. Have i? I am referring to other people. Read in context the implication you have drawn is wrong.

 

[serfty]

Here is the whole quote Serfty. I have not asked the question of you. Have i? I am referring to other people. Read in context the implication you have drawn is wrong.

Actually, no - I have quoted your entire post below.

Anyhoo, it's nice to know you were not using the work wild in reference to a post of mine. :-|

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To some degree, yes. My understanding is the Greens believe immigration policy should prioritise humanitarian and family reunion type immigration.

Which makes the Greens economically irresponsible. It speaks volumes that the Greens support Abbott's PPL policy

Evaluation of policy is important for a truly swinging voter (the 5%), not just what the policies are but whether they are achivable or perchance even carried out.

Another important part is comparing a candidate with a "track record" against one without - if the "track record" is considered poor by the voter then the candidate without may be preferable, but that is up to the voter.

Sometimes, like "preferential voting" it can come down to the "least worst" option - a voter may select a candidate, even though they might not agree with all their policies.

Which is the reason for my question. What make Abbott the least worst option. His platform to date is an economic nightmare, as costed by the Murdoch press - meaning there is no room for claims of bias. He has opposed all moves by the current government to cut spending on middle class welfare. He wants to massively expand middle class welfare. He is proposing to expand spend by approximately 100% over the ALP's plans on 2 measures costed by the The Australian. There are a number of people in this thread that have repeated stated that deficit is their key, and only, metric for judging government performance. Yet when asked outright to explain their continued support for the coalition whose spending plans are a massive threat to the budget deficit, they choose to accuse the person asking the question of being a loony leftie.

It is a very simple question. Given Abbott's out of control spending plans what is abbott offering that buys their continued support, despite the massive threat to the budget deficit? (I don't expect an answer, perhaps more wild accusations)

 

[Pukka]

Seems the only abuses around here is from the liberals at anyone who dares to point out their obvious faults. Go off and have your little group think love in. Truly pathetic the way you rusted on coalition voters claim to be open minded.

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Lol like you and the rest of the granola gang are the most open minded people on the planet.

 

[amaroo]

Still I wouldn't expect you to notice,

What have I noticed?

Some people like to post - others like to argue, belittle, distort, harangue, bully and be outright rude.

The world is full of pumped up keyboard warriors:!:

 

[Moody]

Go and take a look in that mirror!

I try to avoid mirrors, as I find it almost impossible to drag myself away. But leaving the Red Dwarf references aside for now ..... couldn't you find me just one disgraceful post in this bloated and hoary thread?

 

[Sprucegoose]

No we entered the twilight zone when Howard started victimising refugees and joined Bush's false war on terror, on fake evidence...

cough get real. You need to deal with the issues at the time.

 

[drsmithy]

Which makes the Greens economically irresponsible.

Because...?

It speaks volumes that the Greens support Abbott's PPL policy

I believe they want a lower income cap.

I'm actually a bit surprised at their support. I would have expected them to be aiming the money more at paying for publicly funded childcare.

 

[casanovawa]

I try to avoid mirrors, as I find it almost impossible to drag myself away. But leaving the Red Dwarf references aside for now ..... couldn't you find me just one disgraceful post in this bloated and hoary thread?

Was it you who said Amaroo was brain dead, that he should write for the Telegraph or something??? Someone did anyway...

And its only going to get worse as countdown to election day happens chaps, the vitriol will only increase with frustration of the inevitable...

And oh look, 4 pictures of Liberal pollies with nasty faces, we couldn't possibly find 4 nasty faces of Labor pollies could we, they were all pious saints... Give me a break, talk about dumb posts...

And some people are never going to move on....