Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[TheRealTMA]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

..Don't worry The RealTMA, I will have been in Montalcino slurping the odd DOCG Brunello not long before...

Bah Brunello! Try a good (they all are) bottle of Vino Nobile or better still Il Nocio from Boscarelli and you'll be converted from the Sangiovese Grosso disease for life.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here actually changed their view since the last election?

Yes! I used to think Malcolm Turnbull was an intelligent man (sorry) but his slavish frothing and destruction of the NBN by bringing back copper instead of fibre is one of the most incompetent technical and economic arguments I've ever heard. Especially when he invests in France in companies that are bulding fibre-to-the-home.

 

[vetrade]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

I think you're meant to attack the argument, not me (my bold above)...

Regardless, it's the impression that a lot of people got (there was a printed article in a magazine as well), and when it comes to politics, thats what counts more than truth...

Anyway, I think I'm backing out of this one. Your opinion wont change, and neither will mine...

This highlights the difference between us - for me, nothing counts more than truth because it is a cornerstone of trust and, by extension, the ability of people to work and live collaboratively. I think that different opinions provide for lively and challenging debate which should force us all to question our own beliefs as well as others'. The proviso should be that for one to hold an opinion that is worth sharing it should, at least, have been formed based on facts and some demonstration of logical thought. Conversely, opinions based on the "illogic" that impressions count more than the truth (ie lying is OK because I can't think of a truthful way to create the impression I want) are successful only in deluding oneself.

 

[777]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

This highlights the difference between us - for me, nothing counts more than truth because it is a cornerstone of trust and, by extension, the ability of people to work and live collaboratively. I think that different opinions provide for lively and challenging debate which should force us all to question our own beliefs as well as others'. The proviso should be that for one to hold an opinion that is worth sharing it should, at least, have been formed based on facts and some demonstration of logical thought. Conversely, opinions based on the "illogic" that impressions count more than the truth (ie lying is OK because I can't think of a truthful way to create the impression I want) are successful only in deluding oneself.

While we may not have come to the same political conclusion i basically agree with you.

To take the Carbon Tax/ Pricing though (which is the gold standard of political truth), it is worth remembering that Tony Abbott has changed his position on it more often than Julia Gillard has. Tony Abbott has at various points been anti ETS, pro carbon tax, pro ETS but anti carbon tax and (now) anti carbon tax and ETS. He is also on the public record as being both concerned about climate change and thinking it's (in his words) "cough."

For all her faults, Julia Gillard has maintained the consistent position of being pro pricing carbon for as long she has been on the pubic record about it.

What i genuinely don't understand (apart from media hype) is why Gillard's public record is considered worse than Abbott's?

 

[blackcat20]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

This highlights the difference between us - for me, nothing counts more than truth because it is a cornerstone of trust and, by extension, the ability of people to work and live collaboratively. I think that different opinions provide for lively and challenging debate which should force us all to question our own beliefs as well as others'. The proviso should be that for one to hold an opinion that is worth sharing it should, at least, have been formed based on facts and some demonstration of logical thought. Conversely, opinions based on the "illogic" that impressions count more than the truth (ie lying is OK because I can't think of a truthful way to create the impression I want) are successful only in deluding oneself.

I havent said that the truth isnt important to me; as a scientist, I'm always looking for the truth. What I was trying to say is that a lot of the voting people wont be, they'll take what they hear in the media as gospel and vote based on that.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

What i genuinely don't understand (apart from media hype) is why Gillard's public record is considered worse than Abbott's?

I think it's an excellent question.

It's even more interesting when you overlay it with HVR's comment that all politicians lie (ie. dump promises after the election).

To me the answer is obvious - and there is no equivalency.

1/ The issue of the Carbon Tax / ETS was probably the single most contentious issue of the previous Term. JG decided to make it an election issue by explicitly stating that she won't adopt one "under a gov't I lead etc etc". She could have said nothing - but instead she took an explicit position on the number 1 highest-order contentious issue around at the time.

2/ It wasn't simply a vanilla election promise that got dumped due to "state of finances" or new situation or what have you.

3/ The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with changing one's mind. She or Tony or Howard or whoever can change their minds about whatever they like, whenever they like. (This is an issue that may go to Character - but people understand that situations change and people change their opinions - isn't that what mature debate is about).

4/ The "new and changed circumstances" post election put her in a bind. (well it didn't - but she let it). Had she never have made the issue "black & white" with her pre-election comments - then it's a non-issue.

But given she had - even under the new circumstances - she should have gone back to an election if she wanted a new mandate. Alternatively - she should have ensured that the process was staged - so that implementation only occurred after the next election (which she could have planned early) to receive such mandate.

5/ This is where Howard and the GST were different. He was elected in 96 on the specific position of no-GST. He changed his position and wanted one - so he went to the 98 election (called a year early) for a mandate which he won. JG should have done the same.

So in summary - to answer your question - it has nothing to do with record, nothing to do with public positions, but everything to do with making a contentious issue into an election position, getting elected and directly reversing it. (Not the same as a vanilla election promise which simply gets quietly dropped).

 

[Jousams]

senator conroy - 'I can make media organizations put red underwear on their head if I told them' .

I will NOT vote for the labor party while this man is representing them.

 

[Skyring]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

What i genuinely don't understand (apart from media hype) is why Gillard's public record is considered worse than Abbott's?

We reserve our strongest condemnation for those who say one thing and deliver another. Howard's non-core promises and Gillard's "no carbon tax", for example. If our votes are cast based on pre-election pledges and those pledges turn out to have been worthless, then we are likely to feel unhappy that we have been lied to and unlikely to be fooled again.

 

[Alanslegal]

OMG ... looks like no-Abbott'lity is going to be PM come September time.

JG did stuff up but at least she tried. No Abbott'lity, well, its only doom and gloom according to his words. FTW I will be in Whyalla on September 14 and surrounded by plenty of females. You see, Whyalla was supposed to be wiped off the map and the girls, they are there for my moral support - that's what No Abbott'lity does and thinks he is pro-woman.

 

[Alanslegal]

And my kids will not be forced to read the Bible. They will be allowed to choose and practice their own religious beliefs, if they should desire and not because No Abbott'lity wants them to.

 

[Alanslegal]

And my daughter and her daughters, well they can choose to have or not have an abortion and not because No-Abbott'lity says its not allowed. OK I have no kids (at this stage) but this is what's called sh** stirring and No-Abbott'lity is good at this. Rule#1. Stir sh** . His Rule#2. Apply 200% on Rule 1. Rule #3 Never ever debate the policy or topic. That my friends, is how to become PM.

Ps. Sorry to post pad (even tho posts don't count in the playground) but I can't seem to edit with this iPad aff app. Btw, hi from Seoul

 

[serfty]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

I havent said that the truth isnt important to me; as a scientist, I'm always looking for the truth. What I was trying to say is that a lot of the voting people wont be, they'll take what they hear in the media as gospel and vote based on that.

At an estimation, of 100% of voters:

30% will not listen to the media and simply vote the same way,

40% will take only the gospel they want to hear from the media to justify voting the same way,

10% will listen to all the media they can access then vote the same way,

15% will listen to all the media they can access, consider the parties policies, how such may affect them and make a decision on who to vote for,

3% will toss a coin or make their decision in a similar finigal way and

2% might actually make their decision entirely based on what they learn from the media.

 

[anat0l]

At an estimation, of 100% of voters:

30% will not listen to the media and simply vote the same way,

50% will take only the gospel they want to hear from the media to justify voting the same way,

10% will listen to all the media they can access then vote the same way,

13% will listen to all the media they can access, consider the parties policies, how such may affect them and make a decision on who to vote for,

1% will toss a coin or make their decision in a similar finigal way and

1% might actually make their decision entirely based on what they learn from the media.

..... and some percentage will contend that they can't add up to 100.

I hate this upcoming election. It makes me sick to be an Australian and anything but proud that we are a "democracy".

 

[markis10]

Craig Thomson has been arrested!

 

[anat0l]

Craig Thomson has been arrested!

So what else is new?

 

[markis10]

So what else is new?

Considering Abbott is talking about a double dissolution election over Carbon Tax.....

 

[Pukka]

I really like Julia's work and I really like the outcomes of the current parliament. I like:
The NDIS
The Royal Commisson into Child abuse
The implementation of a Carbon price
The TAX REFORM - simply amazing; most people don't even now need to put in a tax return.
Love NAPLAN
Love MRRT (really wish we could up the income from this)
Really like Super going from 9% to 12%.
Looking forward to the republic.
Don't like either refugee scheme. (Wish the Libs would just propose to remove their signature from the UNHCR treaty..........they really don't want asylum seekers)

Tony seems quite stupid and Malcolm appears more intelligent. If the Libs get their house in order and do the swap, then maybe they are a chance. Tony could still get in but I like Julia as the value bet.

So I'm guessing you don't run a business and are employed with a fairly small salary.

Good choice Gillard is clearly for you,

 

[drron]

Re: Where will you be election day (September 14th)

Serfty your figures ad up to 105%.Of couse when i have been a scrutineer there were instances of that percentage voting at certain booths.

 

[Pukka]

Craig Thomson has been arrested!

Good can we have an election next month please

 

[Skyring]

Craig Thomson has been arrested!

Just looking at news items, seems that there has been some speculation about this for a day or so. I wonder if this had anything to do with Gillard's timing?