Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[Pom-DownUnder]

Yeah. They can do the COVID vax in their spare time, when they have nothing else to do.

what are you on about?

i was at the pharmac_ today, only 1 staff member on, quiet as hell, are pharmacies near you pushed to capacity?

Post automatically merged: Dec 5, 2020

I had my flu shot in the car park beside the surgery. They wore PPE, and I provided an arm.

exactly, no big thing to stab a needle into someone's arm

 

[RAM]

In NSW (at least) the law requires that only a 'qualified person' in a pharmac_ can administer any injection. A pharmacist is not a 'qualified' person. Qualified = nurses, nurse practitioners, 4th (I think it is) year Med students.

The law also requires that the injections are to be administered in a 'private' location aka not able to be seen by anybody else. I may have missed a special dispensation in the last couple of months but earlier (June/July) this was the case & so due to the run on Flu vaccines - a number of pharmacies were selling (mostly at cost but some at a mark-up) their flu doses to other pharmacies who had someone who could administer them.

About spare capacity etc - 5th year Med students were scheduled to be used to do the hospital staff flu-vaccine program earlier this year due to 'staff shortages'. However, the NSW Health Dept had not actually ordered & stockpiled the flu vaccine sufficiently so many hospitals flu jabs were delayed. The one hospital I know of was delayed by over 5 weeks before supplies arrived from Central Storage.

Why virtually zero pharmacies can administer CV vaccine as things stand

• CV precautions are still required. Where do the people queue in addition to the normal business operation of the pharmac_?
• Normal protocols (before CV was ever heard of) - changes gloves, syringe etc between every person.
• CV protocols are more rigorous.
• Likely that different vaccine will be given to different demographics (covering age, underlying health issues, BMI, ethnicity etc) - very different to the flu jab with only decision being are they under/over X years old.
• The vaccines currently in the public eye require storage at -70 Celsius or below. Something that virtually no pharmac_ can provide.
• The vaccines can only be moved 4 times preferably 3 or they lose their efficacy (UK finding revealed last week). Explanation why UK does not expect local GPs to be able to administer let alone pharmacies. So UK has established regional vaccination centres such as using 'Nightingale temp hospitals' or even racecourse facilities to enable adequate social distancing, parking etc.
• The vaccine is supplied in a 5 use vial not the normal single dose all-in-one vial/syringe. Requires sterile environment, not a car park.
• Many pharmacies do not have staff qualified which is why there was up to a 4 month backlog with the flu vaccine this year (peak for Chemist Warehouse at pharmacies where they did have someone).
• The serial number of each dose needs to be recorded against the patient's record - no details on any system created yet to deal with this as previously NEVER a requirement for a vaccine injection. Given no State Govt had even established a mandatory testing regime for Hotel quarantine staff, & NSW still hadn't as of Friday - very unlikely such a 'secure' system likely to be in place by next June let alone March - but it could be.
• The person adminstering the injection has to validate the dose serial number immediately prior to the injection, & formally aknowledge it (press some buttons which in itself can create a cross-contamination issue).

Not sure about other States' rules on the flu vaccine but in an open air car park does sound unusual. For the CV vaccine I doubt it.

Companies providing the flu vaccinations in-house (likely using some private service) are not necessarily a good example of best/safe practice vaccination protocols. Just think of what happens with aged car, nursing homes etc as the Royal Commission has uncovered.

 

[DC3]

... no big thing to stab a needle into someone's arm

There’s a bit more involved, but you probably know that anyway.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

RAM - I don't see too many issues with what you say. The law can be easily changed to assist with 'qualified person'. Privacy? Well... yes, but I'm sure a simple screen will do! As mentioned, retired doctors and nurses, paramedics volunteering overtime, the armed services medical corps.... training or refresher training might be a possibility.

While the vaccine does require -70 degree transport, it will survive for five days in standard refrigeration. Temporary centres centres can have a sterile area to draw down the vaccines and pass them on to people who will do the injection.

I agree that the end-to-end process and processing times need a thorough review... 30 minutes to administer a covid test with ID needing to be repeated three times in Victoria is far too slow.

 

[DC3]

... The law can be easily changed to assist with 'qualified person' .... retired doctors and nurses, paramedics volunteering overtime, the armed services medical corps.... training or refresher training might be a possibility ...

So, our government would have a plan for all of this?

 

[DC3]

.... was at the pharmac_ today, only 1 staff member on, quiet as hell .. ... no big thing to stab a needle into someone's arm.

So, maybe raise the COVID vax matter with that pharmac_, especially as it seems that they have a lot of time on their hands. See what they think.

And perhaps casually mention how “it’s no big thing to stab a needle into someone's arm”.

Edited

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

In NSW (at least) the law requires that only a 'qualified person' in a pharmac_ can administer any injection. A pharmacist is not a 'qualified' person. Qualified = nurses, nurse practitioners, 4th (I think it is) year Med students.

no, qualified person just means that one of the pharmacists at that branch has done the box, thousands of pharmacies across NSW do vaccinations, without the assistance of nurse / nurse prac / med student.

Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2020

So, maybe raise the COVID vax matter with that pharmac_, especially as it seems that they have a lot of time on their hands. See what they think.

And perhaps casually mention how “it’s no big thing to stab a needle into someone's arm”.

Edited

i dont see what you fascination with people having time on their hands is, i attempted to get you to expand on it but you just blunder on using the phrase as if it is some form of point?

 

[DC3]

.... i dont see what you fascination with people having time on their hands is ... i attempted to get you to expand on it but you just blunder on using the phrase as if it is some form of point?

But you would know nothing about my fascinations.

Back to the point, you probably need to talk to your local pharmacist who seems very under-utilised, to see what he/she thinks.

Are you just wingeing on AFF?

 

[OATEK]

In NSW (at least) the law requires that only a 'qualified person' in a pharmac_ can administer any injection. A pharmacist is not a 'qualified' person. Qualified = nurses, nurse practitioners, 4th (I think it is) year Med students.

The law also requires that the injections are to be administered in a 'private' location aka not able to be seen by anybody else. I may have missed a special dispensation in the last couple of months but earlier (June/July) this was the case & so due to the run on Flu vaccines - a number of pharmacies were selling (mostly at cost but some at a mark-up) their flu doses to other pharmacies who had someone who could administer them.

About spare capacity etc - 5th year Med students were scheduled to be used to do the hospital staff flu-vaccine program earlier this year due to 'staff shortages'. However, the NSW Health Dept had not actually ordered & stockpiled the flu vaccine sufficiently so many hospitals flu jabs were delayed. The one hospital I know of was delayed by over 5 weeks before supplies arrived from Central Storage.

Why virtually zero pharmacies can administer CV vaccine as things stand

• CV precautions are still required. Where do the people queue in addition to the normal business operation of the pharmac_?
• Normal protocols (before CV was ever heard of) - changes gloves, syringe etc between every person.
• CV protocols are more rigorous.
• Likely that different vaccine will be given to different demographics (covering age, underlying health issues, BMI, ethnicity etc) - very different to the flu jab with only decision being are they under/over X years old.
• The vaccines currently in the public eye require storage at -70 Celsius or below. Something that virtually no pharmac_ can provide.
• The vaccines can only be moved 4 times preferably 3 or they lose their efficacy (UK finding revealed last week). Explanation why UK does not expect local GPs to be able to administer let alone pharmacies. So UK has established regional vaccination centres such as using 'Nightingale temp hospitals' or even racecourse facilities to enable adequate social distancing, parking etc.
• The vaccine is supplied in a 5 use vial not the normal single dose all-in-one vial/syringe. Requires sterile environment, not a car park.
• Many pharmacies do not have staff qualified which is why there was up to a 4 month backlog with the flu vaccine this year (peak for Chemist Warehouse at pharmacies where they did have someone).
• The serial number of each dose needs to be recorded against the patient's record - no details on any system created yet to deal with this as previously NEVER a requirement for a vaccine injection. Given no State Govt had even established a mandatory testing regime for Hotel quarantine staff, & NSW still hadn't as of Friday - very unlikely such a 'secure' system likely to be in place by next June let alone March - but it could be.
• The person adminstering the injection has to validate the dose serial number immediately prior to the injection, & formally aknowledge it (press some buttons which in itself can create a cross-contamination issue).

Not sure about other States' rules on the flu vaccine but in an open air car park does sound unusual. For the CV vaccine I doubt it.

Companies providing the flu vaccinations in-house (likely using some private service) are not necessarily a good example of best/safe practice vaccination protocols. Just think of what happens with aged car, nursing homes etc as the Royal Commission has uncovered.

Up thread I mentioned my flu shot was given in a car park. There was a moveable screen there, but in no way was it private as there was a gap big enough to drive a mobility scooter through at the very least.

 

[Pushka]

In NSW (at least) the law requires that only a 'qualified person' in a pharmac_ can administer any injection. A pharmacist is not a 'qualified' person. Qualified = nurses, nurse practitioners, 4th (I think it is) year Med students.

The law also requires that the injections are to be administered in a 'private' location aka not able to be seen by anybody else. I may have missed a special dispensation in the last couple of months but earlier (June/July) this was the case & so due to the run on Flu vaccines - a number of pharmacies were selling (mostly at cost but some at a mark-up) their flu doses to other pharmacies who had someone who could administer them.

About spare capacity etc - 5th year Med students were scheduled to be used to do the hospital staff flu-vaccine program earlier this year due to 'staff shortages'. However, the NSW Health Dept had not actually ordered & stockpiled the flu vaccine sufficiently so many hospitals flu jabs were delayed. The one hospital I know of was delayed by over 5 weeks before supplies arrived from Central Storage.

Why virtually zero pharmacies can administer CV vaccine as things stand

• CV precautions are still required. Where do the people queue in addition to the normal business operation of the pharmac_?
• Normal protocols (before CV was ever heard of) - changes gloves, syringe etc between every person.
• CV protocols are more rigorous.
• Likely that different vaccine will be given to different demographics (covering age, underlying health issues, BMI, ethnicity etc) - very different to the flu jab with only decision being are they under/over X years old.
• The vaccines currently in the public eye require storage at -70 Celsius or below. Something that virtually no pharmac_ can provide.
• The vaccines can only be moved 4 times preferably 3 or they lose their efficacy (UK finding revealed last week). Explanation why UK does not expect local GPs to be able to administer let alone pharmacies. So UK has established regional vaccination centres such as using 'Nightingale temp hospitals' or even racecourse facilities to enable adequate social distancing, parking etc.
• The vaccine is supplied in a 5 use vial not the normal single dose all-in-one vial/syringe. Requires sterile environment, not a car park.
• Many pharmacies do not have staff qualified which is why there was up to a 4 month backlog with the flu vaccine this year (peak for Chemist Warehouse at pharmacies where they did have someone).
• The serial number of each dose needs to be recorded against the patient's record - no details on any system created yet to deal with this as previously NEVER a requirement for a vaccine injection. Given no State Govt had even established a mandatory testing regime for Hotel quarantine staff, & NSW still hadn't as of Friday - very unlikely such a 'secure' system likely to be in place by next June let alone March - but it could be.
• The person adminstering the injection has to validate the dose serial number immediately prior to the injection, & formally aknowledge it (press some buttons which in itself can create a cross-contamination issue).

Not sure about other States' rules on the flu vaccine but in an open air car park does sound unusual. For the CV vaccine I doubt it.

Companies providing the flu vaccinations in-house (likely using some private service) are not necessarily a good example of best/safe practice vaccination protocols. Just think of what happens with aged car, nursing homes etc as the Royal Commission has uncovered.

Pharmacists can give any immunisation normally required in daily life in SA.

Post automatically merged: Dec 7, 2020

So, our government would have a plan for all of this?

It’s a state issue.

 

[Princess Fiona]

How long will it take to deliver those 22 million injections?

Say 10 minutes per dose. Takes two doses = 11,000,000 x 2 x 10 = 220,000,000 minutes of a nurse/doctor's time.
Is 3,666,666 hours, 488,889 working days.

3,000 nurses/doctors = 163 days or nearly 33 weeks or 7.5 months = mid November 2021 if start after 31 March.
5,000 nurses/doctors = 98 days, nearly 20 weeks or 4.5 months = mid July

Or how many people can one nurse/doctor vaccinate per day if all clerical work is done by another staff member?

6 per hour, or 45 people a day. Realistically nobody can be expected to be providing vaccinations 5 days a week for six months or more.

How many spare 'sterile' rooms are there for the vaccination to be done in?

AS CV precautions will still need to be taken - will the medical staff doing the vaccinations be required to dispose of their gloves, gown etc & between every patient? Is 10 minutes per patient long enough?

Given that the seemingly obvious mandatory testing of hotel quarantine, airport workers, ADF, Police etc involved in CV facing roles has still not been enacted in NSW (generally held out by many to be the most-on-the-ball) - then it does make you wonder whether the actual vaccination protocols have been fully thought through let alone standardised.

In the UK's case they identified specific vaccination locations back in August & started the logistical planning to ensure they had adequate PPE supplies to deal with the massive surge in requirement.

Now as many AFFers can testify first-hand - there is not a lot of spare medical capacity existing in the Australian system. Not many medical staff are sitting around doing nothing.

Where will the 3,000 to 5,000 nurses/doctors be taken from? Where are 3,000 to 5,000 suitable rooms for them to use?

Offsetting this is the number of people who do not turn up as scheduled or at all. Typically between 8 to 15% for one reason or another (even for free weekly clinics run in our public hospitals!)

It would be a positive outcome if some specific details were released by National Cabinet or the National medical advisor group to help build public confidence.

You are wrong.
Pharmacists in NSW who have completed a training course can administer Vaccines.
In fact one did at Terry White Chemist in the midst of the lockdown to two of family who needed Flu Vax for school.

NSW Health

 

[ayushamity]

Well. Only about 10 days left till travel ban ends. Leaving it pretty late for the next extension.

 

[sydneyboi]

my thoughts exactly...

 

[DC3]

... It’s a state issue.

Now there’s some good news.

 

[oznflfan]

Well. Only about 10 days left till travel ban ends. Leaving it pretty late for the next extension.

Tomorrow lunchtime, press out to 17th March 2021 with comment more will be known with vaccine approval and commencement of vaccination program. Rinse and repeat again in March.

 

[trevella]

Whether they realise it or not - the UK is being volunteered as non-clinical guinea pigs.

It certainly won't speed things up at our end. Given how many people die in aged care on any given day, there will immediately be people dying completely coincidentally within days of taking the vaccine, with all the attendant media noise. Which will serve as more fuel for the insular and innumerate anti-riskers.

 

[RAM]

You are wrong.
Pharmacists in NSW who have completed a training course can administer Vaccines.
In fact one did at Terry White Chemist in the midst of the lockdown to two of family who needed Flu Vax for school.

NSW Health

Well it seems that many pharmacists have chosen not to do the course in NSW then. When the flu vaccine rollout began and there was the long delay - the Chemist Warehouse spokesperson mentioned they did not have the required qualified personnel which was why it was up to nearly 4 months to find an available slot for some and two months for the rest.

Neither do many other pharmacies it would seem.

Wouldn't it be a good idea for National Cabinet et al to start informing the community about exactly what they are doing about this?

 

[Princess Fiona]

Well it seems that many pharmacists have chosen not to do the course in NSW then. When the flu vaccine rollout began and there was the long delay - the Chemist Warehouse spokesperson mentioned they did not have the required qualified personnel which was why it was up to nearly 4 months to find an available slot for some and two months for the rest.

Neither do many other pharmacies it would seem.

Wouldn't it be a good idea for National Cabinet et al to start informing the community about exactly what they are doing about this?

I live in regional NSW and had a choice of half a dozen to take my kids to.
It’s not a problem to get a Flu shot at a pharmac_.
And again you were wrong in stating that Pharmacists couldn’t give immunizations in NSW.

 

[DC3]

Seems that some pharmacies choose to offer flu vax, while others don’t. The reasons are probably varied. Will that be similar for COVID vax? Who knows. Some seem very busy while others are not?

Do we have pharmac_ owners/workers on AFF who might have first-hand knowledge about this? Not sure how active the pharmac_ Guild is. They represent their member pharmac_ owners, don’t they?

Or, do Fed/State Governments plan on hospitals/medical centre locations, and not pharmacies, for our COVID jabs?

Edited

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Seems that some pharmacies choose to offer flu vax, while others don’t. The reasons are probably varied. Will that be similar for COVID vax? Who knows. Some seem very busy while others are not?

Do we have pharmac_ owners/workers on AFF who might have first-hand knowledge about this? Not sure how active the pharmac_ Guild is. They represent their member pharmac_ owners, don’t they?

Or, do Fed/State Governments plan on hospitals/medical centre locations, and not pharmacies, for our COVID jabs?

Edited

Not to appear to sponsor anyone but for example Chemist Warehouse offers shots for flu and whooping cough in all States and Territories. In some States/Territories, Chemist Warehouse might be allowed to do one or two other types. At Chemist Warehouse, appointment needed and payment - can be booked online.

An issue is whether for the Covid vaccine is how sensitive it is. If your stock goes bad because there is not enough demand by the expiry date, then that might be an issue of concern. Plus coordinating the second booster. I gather the amount of doses is precious at this time.