Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[Seat0B]

Yes evidently many just returned home for Xmas visits.

Now while family bonds and contact is important, it does reinforce that there is no real prioritisation amongst "Australians" coming in to Australia of actual genuine need vs wants.

Currently it seems to be more driven by an individual's ability (ie can pay for business class) or luck (ie the repatriation flights where seats are randomly sold) in getting a flight and entry into Australia.

Should those seeking to "permanently" return be given priority over those returning for a brief "holiday/family" visit? Note though that some short visits may be to farewell die-ing relatives, or other urgent purposes etc.

I don’t think that an Australian citizen should EVER need a reason to enter Australia. That’s one of the major points of citizenship.

And that’s partly what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there has been a whole year to sort out a system. It’s been 12 months since the border closure with quarantine started and it seems to me that NOTHING has been improved in that system in all that time - if anything, it is worse with the caps that were introduced. If there were no caps, then market forces would see better availability and pricing on tickets etc. plus those caps prevent Australian citizens (and I’m not talking about permanent residents, I mean full citizens) from returning. Others clearly disagree, and maybe you do too @lovetravellingoz, but really, I feel very strongly that right to return to your country without giving a reason should be paramount. And almost as strongly that the government should not take actions that make it all but impossible in reality to exercise that right.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

I don’t think that an Australian citizen should EVER need a reason to enter Australia. That’s one of the major points of citizenship.

And that’s partly what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there has been a whole year to sort out a system. It’s been 12 months since the border closure with quarantine started and it seems to me that NOTHING has been improved in that system in all that time - if anything, it is worse with the caps that were introduced. If there were no caps, then market forces would see better availability and pricing on tickets etc. plus those caps prevent Australian citizens (and I’m not talking about permanent residents, I mean full citizens) from returning. Others clearly disagree, and maybe you do too @lovetravellingoz, but really, I feel very strongly that right to return to your country without giving a reason should be paramount. And almost as strongly that the government should not take actions that make it all but impossible in reality to exercise that right.

So I guess you no longer support mandatory quarantine.

The initial trust quarantine at home was a huge problem.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don’t think that an Australian citizen should EVER need a reason to enter Australia. That’s one of the major points of citizenship.

And that’s partly what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there has been a whole year to sort out a system. It’s been 12 months since the border closure with quarantine started and it seems to me that NOTHING has been improved in that system in all that time - if anything, it is worse with the caps that were introduced. If there were no caps, then market forces would see better availability and pricing on tickets etc. plus those caps prevent Australian citizens (and I’m not talking about permanent residents, I mean full citizens) from returning. Others clearly disagree, and maybe you do too @lovetravellingoz, but really, I feel very strongly that right to return to your country without giving a reason should be paramount. And almost as strongly that the government should not take actions that make it all but impossible in reality to exercise that right.

Isn’t it a bit unfair when non-resident citizens can come and go freely, but resident citizens are prevented from doing so?

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Isn’t it a bit unfair when non-resident citizens can come and go freely, but resident citizens are prevented from doing so?

I don’t see any proof of that happening now.

Assuming you are meaning non-resident Australian citizens and resident Australian citizens

 

[mviy]

So I guess you no longer support mandatory quarantine.

The initial trust quarantine at home was a huge problem.

They could do mandatory quarantine with significantly higher caps if they threw more money at it and/or increased the quarantine price for those who cannot provide evidence of making an original booking to come home before a certain date or left Australia after a certain date.

If I had been allowed to depart last year but had to pay $5-10k for hotel quarantine for two weeks on my return I probably would have done it. My reasons for travelling were that important to me. I don't think it's all unreasonable to expect that if people want to leave the country now and return whilst hotel quarantine is still in place that they should be expected to pay more for quarantine than someone who's been trying to get home for months.

It's simple economics. If they find a way to increase supply they can cater for increased demand. They have had plenty of time to significantly increase supply of rooms for quarantine if they really wanted to.

Sydney's pulling far more than their fare share of the numbers. If they can do it the other states should be able to do it too.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don’t see any proof of that happening now.

Assuming you are meaning non-resident Australian citizens and resident Australian citizens

Yes, non-resident Australian citizens (vs resident Australian citizens). I know several who came home for Christmas for example. And others who have made at least two trips for back to Australia for business (and to see family at the same time).

 

[Seat0B]

So I guess you no longer support mandatory quarantine.

The initial trust quarantine at home was a huge problem.

I have never really supported Hotel quarantine, but that is not the issue I am directly concerned about. It's the way that HQ is operating (or being allowed to operate) as a system constraint on citizens returning home. If we have to have it, then let’s have it - but properly run, so that people without COVID when they enter do not leave quarantine with COVID caught from other guests as has happened in Vic, so that the poor HQ staff don’t get it and then spread it to their families and result in health issues for them and lock downs for the rest of us. While we are at it, let's run it so that it is not the limiting factor that prevents Australian citizens coming home. Surely that cannot be beyond the wit of a 'clever country' like Australia. And if hotel quarantine is for the broader community's benefit and protection, as we keep getting told, then it should be provided at the government’s (taxpayers’) expense as a community health issue - like free vaccines are being provided to everyone who is here, citizen, PR or otherwise, which isalso for the broader community benefit.

Hotel quarantine maybe was an acceptable stop gap approach in the first early days, but to be still running the same system in the same way many, many months later is pretty poor, especially as the government knows that there is a long list of people wanting to come home. And that list never seems to get any shorter- exactly the operational definition of a system constraint. And that does not even include people who haven’t listed themselves as needing DFAT’s help to get home.

So no, I guess I don't support the total stuff up of a way that HQ is being run. I accept that others feel differently, and maybe even that I am in the minority, but I am not the only person who feels like this.

 

[Seat0B]

Isn’t it a bit unfair when non-resident citizens can come and go freely, but resident citizens are prevented from doing so?

Fair, shmair. Nothing about this COVID situation has been fair - borders slamming shut at ridiculously short notice for a single case, state turf wars over access to hospitals, forbidden to leave the country like it is the USSR, unable to visit elderly relatives and so on. In my book, a citizen is a citizen, and should be allowed to come and go.

However, I actually agree with your post - but perhaps not the way you expect. it is unfair that 'resident citizens' as you call them, are banned from leaving. I strongly disagree with the ban on any citizen leaving the country. So in my book, we should all be free to come and go. If you have to quarantine, so be it, but as per my last post, especially if I am paying for the quarantine, that quarantine should be of a professional 'merchantable' standard, and should be available within a reasonable time frame to every citizen who is told by the government that they must quarantine.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

They could do mandatory quarantine with significantly higher caps if they threw more money at it and/or increased the quarantine price for those who cannot provide evidence of making an original booking to come home before a certain date or left Australia after a certain date.

If I had been allowed to depart last year but had to pay $5-10k for hotel quarantine for two weeks on my return I probably would have done it. My reasons for travelling were that important to me.

It's simple economics. If they find a way to increase supply they can cater for increased demand. They have had plenty of time to significantly increase supply of rooms for quarantine if they really wanted to.

Sydney's pulling far more than their fare share of the numbers. If they can do it the other states should be able to do it too.

Ah, but if your issue is with the caps (not quarantine - as you are ‘ok’ with doing hotel quarantine), then your issue is with the States that have been progressively decreasing the caps (likely in competition with each other)....and that I suspect seem to be an extreme loss making ‘enterprise’ even with the fees being charged (and paid/unpaid). It doesn’t seem publicly appropriate yet to add another tier for later departures.

Edit: to add some hotels are now seeing the stigma attached to hotel quarantine and will not join or extend (eg Hilton Sydney). There is also non-hotel resources eg police, security and health. Other States have competing interests eg needing at-call resources for State borders and localised lockdowns.

You might even recall in the news Qld refusing to reimburse NSW for the period before paid quarantine was introduced.

The only ‘expansion’ was for the repatriation flights to mainly Howard Springs.

How to increase capacity elsewhere? Christmas Island - not really serviceable (need another flight domestically once the camp is cleared, otherwise a bit expensive doing multiple domestic flights to match rolling clearance eg positive v negative v close contact; is the hospital satisfactory?).

If there were defense sites or other commonwealth property readily available, you would have thought they would have been implemented- and it’s only to this extent you could query the Federal response.

While you would be ok to do paid hotel quarantine, many currently expressing issue with no plan in place couldn’t risk taking a flight to Australia due to annual leave restrictions and/or perceived likelihood of being bumped and/or cost of quarantine..

There have been various anecdotal instances of people leaving with an exemption (from what I gather, eg Tony Abbott, people going for IVF treatment, working on the Olympics) so I’m not sure whether you might have qualified for an exemption to leaveAustralia or if you had made an exemption application.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I don’t think that an Australian citizen should EVER need a reason to enter Australia. That’s one of the major points of citizenship.

And that’s partly what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there has been a whole year to sort out a system. It’s been 12 months since the border closure with quarantine started and it seems to me that NOTHING has been improved in that system in all that time - if anything, it is worse with the caps that were introduced. If there were no caps, then market forces would see better availability and pricing on tickets etc. plus those caps prevent Australian citizens (and I’m not talking about permanent residents, I mean full citizens) from returning. Others clearly disagree, and maybe you do too @lovetravellingoz, but really, I feel very strongly that right to return to your country without giving a reason should be paramount. And almost as strongly that the government should not take actions that make it all but impossible in reality to exercise that right.

Yes I essentially agree and have posted to that effect. The 12 months of the Feds sitting on their hands is ridiculous, which is what I have argued for a while that the Federal Government should have been setting up purpose build Quarantine Facilities. ie separate cabins.
= Increase capacity in a safer system

However at present when there is such limited capacity personally find it odd that the bulk of the limited entries is a lucky dip approached more decided by willingness to pay, rather than on need.

Now we live in capitalistic society which overall is the best balance, but at times like these if there is a quota there should have been better management of people coming in to Australia.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Yes, non-resident Australian citizens (vs resident Australian citizens). I know several who came home for Christmas for example. And others who have made at least two trips for back to Australia for business (and to see family at the same time).

I’m assuming your examples are non-resident Australian citizens. Non-residents are allowed to leave under an exemption/specific rule. But do you know any resident Australian citizens not allowed to leave if they fall within an exemption/specific rule?

 

[NoName]

I can’t wait for the day when this thread is no longer relevant and it gets closed for further reply by the admin. Seems we just go around in circles more or less.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

I have never really supported Hotel quarantine, but that is not the issue I am directly concerned about. It's the way that HQ is operating (or being allowed to operate) as a system constraint on citizens returning home. If we have to have it, then let’s have it - but properly run, so that people without COVID when they enter do not leave quarantine with COVID caught from other guests as has happened in Vic, so that the poor HQ staff don’t get it and then spread it to their families and result in health issues for them and lock downs for the rest of us. While we are at it, let's run it so that it is not the limiting factor that prevents Australian citizens coming home. Surely that cannot be beyond the wit of a 'clever country' like Australia. And if hotel quarantine is for the broader community's benefit and protection, as we keep getting told, then it should be provided at the government’s (taxpayers’) expense as a community health issue - like free vaccines are being provided to everyone who is here, citizen, PR or otherwise, which isalso for the broader community benefit.

Hotel quarantine maybe was an acceptable stop gap approach in the first early days, but to be still running the same system in the same way many, many months later is pretty poor, especially as the government knows that there is a long list of people wanting to come home. And that list never seems to get any shorter- exactly the operational definition of a system constraint. And that does not even include people who haven’t listed themselves as needing DFAT’s help to get home.

So no, I guess I don't support the total stuff up of a way that HQ is being run. I accept that others feel differently, and maybe even that I am in the minority, but I am not the only person who feels like this.

All sides of the issues will have many supporters. You seem to be looking for the Federal Government to hold the States accountable in some way, since you dont support the way hotel quarantine is being run, and it’s the States running hotel quarantine in a way that you consider is a total stuff up.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I’m assuming your examples are non-resident Australian citizens. Non-residents are allowed to leave under an exemption/specific rule. But do you know any resident Australian citizens not allowed to leave if they fall within an exemption/specific rule?

I take your point. But the key difference is that non-resident citizens can come home for any reason. Resident citizens can only leave if they fit within a (petty strict) exemption. I can't leave for a holiday, or to see family overseas. But a non-res can come back for a holiday or to see family here in Oz.

 

[Seat0B]

I take your point. But the key difference is that non-resident citizens can come home for any reason. Resident citizens can only leave if they fit within a (petty strict) exemption. I can't leave for a holiday, or to see family overseas. But a non-res can come back for a holiday or to see family here in Oz.

...and you should be able to leave, just as they should be able to return, in my opinion.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

I take your point. But the key difference is that non-resident citizens can come home for any reason. Resident citizens can only leave if they fit within a (petty strict) exemption. I can't leave for a holiday, or to see family overseas. But a non-res can come back for a holiday or to see family here in Oz.

Well I would say that a non-resident citizen can go home (assuming you mean leave Australia) because they fit within a specific rule/exemption - in principle back to where they live/work permanently. If a resident needs to leave for long-term work, they should qualify for an exemption and be allowed to leave . There have been a few examples of children of AFF members (residents at the time of leaving) leaving effectively permanently for a new job/life path.

And a few non-residents on this thread believe they can’t enter Australia due to caps, quarantine, bumped off, obtaining ‘enough’ annual leave. So some are deterred from coming to Australia for a holiday/to see family/friends.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...and you should be able to leave, just as they should be able to return, in my opinion.

100% agree! I think the ban on leaving was gravely unfair.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

100% agree! I think the ban on leaving was gravely unfair.

Blame the Bali holidayers lol, leaving despite the level 4 travel advice. Another thing the Federal Government tried to equalise insufficient supply of hotel quarantine v incoming passengers.

A curious thing to ask the forum/thread: what were the incoming traveller numbers per month? Could any country sustain hotel quarantine for even 25% of that amount. (25% being a thumb suck guesstimation of what activity might continue if we are allowed to leave freely).

 

[hb13]

To be fair, I think there’s an opportunity to take the initiative... put what’s out there together and make some reasonable/sensible plans. For example towards the end of 2021, using airlines, fares, award seats and hotel rooms that are fully refundable, or don’t require payment until close to the date.

The alternative is to wait until an exact date is announced and we potentially get what happened in the UK... a 337% increase in travel bookings, fares increasing, award seats gone.

Appreciate that’s more applicable to leisure bookings. Business probably wants something more concrete.

While in principle I agree with you - and I'm looking to do that for intra-Europe travel later this summer and then possibly back home to Australia for a couple of weeks in Feb next year - however, let's be honest. What are the chances of that latter trip happening?

I have made a booking with QR to fly back to MEL that I have now pushed 3 times - the booking still exists and will need to be pushed again. And this is the extremely frustrating thing that I have been trying to explain to you. By the end of this year, I would expect that the whole Australian population will be vaccinated. I expect that I should be here in the UK too as the plan is to be done by end of Sept/Oct.

If the above all happens - what chance do I put at being able to enter Australia and not have to quarantine? I'd say 10% maybe? Would you say differently? You are saying you can see the PM has shifted and there is some plan there. So what do you put the chances of a fully vaccinated traveler going to Aus without quarantining (after all Aussies have been vaccinated)?

 

[hb13]

I don’t think that an Australian citizen should EVER need a reason to enter Australia. That’s one of the major points of citizenship.

And that’s partly what I meant when I said in an earlier post that there has been a whole year to sort out a system. It’s been 12 months since the border closure with quarantine started and it seems to me that NOTHING has been improved in that system in all that time - if anything, it is worse with the caps that were introduced. If there were no caps, then market forces would see better availability and pricing on tickets etc. plus those caps prevent Australian citizens (and I’m not talking about permanent residents, I mean full citizens) from returning. Others clearly disagree, and maybe you do too @lovetravellingoz, but really, I feel very strongly that right to return to your country without giving a reason should be paramount. And almost as strongly that the government should not take actions that make it all but impossible in reality to exercise that right.

Agreed 100%. A citizen should be allowed back into the country no matter what.