Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[HappyFlyerFamily]

She’s an EM Physician same as me. I’d likewise separate from my family if I contract this. I would do everything possible to prevent myself transmitting it to anyone else including my family.
If everyone who contracted it was able to do so Community transmission would be falling much faster.

But isn’t it the case that healthcare sector workers get offered accommodation if they get infected? I don’t think this is generally offered to other positive cases.

NZ is doing this (offering isolation facilities) with most of their current second outbreak.

 

[Princess Fiona]

But isn’t it the case that healthcare sector workers get offered accommodation if they get infected? I don’t think this is generally offered to other positive cases.

NZ is doing this (offering isolation facilities) with most of their current second outbreak.

Yes healthcare workers are offered it. I asked this exact question at a NSW health Q&A. Funded Hotel accommodation is available for anyone who is unable to adequately self-isolate at home, not only health care workers.
Taking this further I asked why we don’t put positive cases in hospital hotels etc.
The answers given are that a lot of the family transmission has already occurred by the time the first family member has been diagnosed and they want as many people as possible to continue to come forward for testing. Mandating / recommending hotel hospital quarantine is seen as detrimental to that goal and would discourage people from being tested if they thought they would be separated from their family. Much like the sentiment @Pushka expressed in the post.

 

[HokitikaGold]

Hang on, what? ‘Older’ people need to be more proactive in looking after their own health and well-being. It isn’t my job. How many times I’ve been out and about and seen the elderly not taking any precautions is beyond me, yet we’ve crippled the economy with no end in sight and once this is all over we will be dealing with far worse issues. My friends and family in Europe and Israel continue to enjoy work and life while we sit here and sweat over daily cases. We’ve turned each state into a separate country and this ‘us vs them’ mentality is ridiculous. The rest of the world will move on and learn to live with this while Australia continues to cripple itself.

I am assuming you are in Victoria? That would explain your chagrin. If so, I get your pain and predicament.

So you have seen some older folk that were not defending themselves? What does that mean? By far the majority of deaths in Australia have been in old-persons homes where younger people brought them the virus... And unless you have been living under a rock, the main purpose of masks etc is for those polluted to not spread the virus, not to protect yourself.

I am surprised at your comments re Europe and Israel. These are places that have tried to regain some sort of normality, but are now sufferring "second waves" that make Victoria pale in comparison. They are in far worse state than us.

An unfortunate aspect of this virus, in the "deaths versus economics' theme, is that we (you) are so focussed on actual deaths that the other effects of corona are not newsworthy. Apart from the death toll, those many more that survive are not just free and recovered - they are getting secondary/side effects that linger - it is all new so the real impact is not yet known. But they are there. A gazzillion dollars of post-recovery health costs.

You may believe it isn't "your job" to look after older people. You may also, if you read your own words in the context of a pandemic, wonder what part you play seeming that you say "how many times I've been out and about'. Why are you out so much?

Much of my extended family lives in other countries, where they are in more severe lockdown than Victoria, and have been so since March. They are poorer countries, so it hurts so much more.

yes, we sweat over daily cases. But we have cases that carry far less zeros than most other places.

At the end of the day, please respect that the older people that you seem happy to sacrifice fought many wars , both military and economic, to enable you to have the affluence that you now seem to feel entitled to...

 

[Pushka]

The answers given are that a lot of the family transmission has already occurred by the time the first family member has been diagnosed and they want as many people as possible to continue to come forward for testing. Mandating / recommending hotel hospital quarantine is seen as detrimental to that goal and would discourage people from being tested if they thought they would be separated from their family. Much like the sentiment @Pushka expressed in the post.

This is where SA differs now. I guess it is the impact of low numbers here but family members who are positive are separated in Govt accommodation from family members who are negative.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

My mum is 86 and she has a very similar view. Here in the COVID hotspot of the ACT, where technically we are still required to maintain a 1.5m distance from anyone not from our immediate household, she has refused to abandon hugs from the family. Her comment is "I'm 86, I could die tomorrow and I don;t want my last 6 months to have been totally devoid of family love." She does live in her own home, and we all sanitise hands and stay away if feeling ill, sometimes even wear a mask, but we are hugging at her request. There is life, and then there is living a life worth living.

My parents are the opposite! They've enjoyed their 85 years and want another 10 years doing the same. They're more than happy to be socially distanced and forego the hugs for a few short months.

In Victoria they had a report on the news that aged care residents being transferred to hospitals for their safety were only being admitted on the condition they signed a 'do not resuscitate, no assisted breathing, no ventilator' waiver. It made my father physically sick when he heard that.

So there are people across the whole spectrum. But my folks certainly don't want to die from this when a few months will bring huge advancements in the management of the virus.

 

[Pushka]

My parents are the opposite! They've enjoyed their 85 years and want another 10 years doing the same. They're more than happy to be socially distanced and forego the hugs for a few short months.

In Victoria they had a report on the news that aged care residents being transferred to hospitals for their safety were only being admitted on the condition they signed a 'do not resuscitate, no assisted breathing, no ventilator' waiver. It made my father physically sick when he heard that.

So there are people across the whole spectrum. But my folks certainly don't want to die from this when a few months will bring huge advancements in the management of the virus.

And that is good that they can socially isolate etc etc. And especially that they are both still together. If one had lost the other then that might make for a completely different decision process. And a lonely time in isolation from loved ones and friends.

But. We dont know when this will be over. It could take years. Maybe never. And We dont know when our heart or brain decides that our time is up. Im opting for quality not quantity. But if I choose quantity then it is up to me to take care of that choice and not expect everyone else to have to forego so much to enable me to achieve that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And that is good that they can socially isolate etc etc.


But. We dont know when this will be over. It could take years. Maybe never. And We dont know when our heart or brain decides that our time is up. Im opting for quality not quantity. But if I choose quantity then it is up to me to take care of that choice and not expect everyone else to have to forego so much to enable me to achieve that.

i completely agree. And if it was solely people like you then we wouldn’t have a problem.

But we have people that want to go out, ignore social distancing... which is all fine, until they transfer that in their daily routines to others. Night out at the pub or clubbing but go to work at the supermarket the next day. We had doctors going to work when they had symptoms... if they can’t get it right, the chances are that many others will also get it wrong.

sure, we don’t know when our time is up. But perhaps there are some of us that would like to make sure our time is not up through something which we have to rely on others for? If there’s a vaccine, or effective treatment, or the strain becomes less virulent over the next few months... all fine and the folks are happy to go back to social norms. But at the moment a hug isn’t really worth a potential death sentence, and a death where your family can’t even be with you

 

[Pushka]

sure, we don’t know when our time is up. But perhaps there are some of us that would like to make sure our time is not up through something which we have to rely on others for?

We take that risk every time we set foot in our car for a peaceful drive to the corner shop. We are at risk from other drivers. Statistics from traffic accidents and deaths are much more frightening than covid currently. Flu rate much worse but much better this year.

It is really unlikely that people who are vulnerable are going to be mixing with clubbers if the vulnerable people have systems in place that allow them to avoid high risk contact places. And if social distancing is enforced everywhere.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

We take that risk every time we set foot in our car for a peaceful drive to the corner shop. We are at risk from other drivers. Statistics from traffic accidents and deaths are much more frightening than covid currently. Flu rate much worse but much better this year.

It is really unlikely that people who are vulnerable are going to be mixing with clubbers if the vulnerable people have systems in place that allow them to avoid high risk contact places. And if social distancing is enforced everywhere.

I accept there are risks, like driving a car. But those are risks we choose to assume. The flu we can take measures to prevent infection, or reduce severity or the chance of dying from it.

Infection at meatworks... large family gathering... one of the family gathering works in aged care. Perhaps a more relevant example?

 

[antycbr]

I accept there are risks, like driving a car. But those are risks we choose to assume. The flu we can take measures to prevent infection, or reduce severity or the chance of dying from it.

Infection at meatworks... large family gathering... one of the family gathering works in aged care. Perhaps a more relevant example?

Ultimately we will need to move forward one way or another. People in their 20s and 30s won't sacrifice multiple years of their lives and they will also see the rest of the world getting on with their lives and start to ask why Australia is different.

Governments rule by consent and we are seeing cracks in that consent already.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ultimately we will need to move forward one way or another. People in their 20s and 30s won't sacrifice multiple years of their lives and they will also see the rest of the world getting on with their lives and start to ask why Australia is different.

Governments rule by consent and we are seeing cracks in that consent already.

As I've mentioned previously... vaccines on their way, other treatments and cures on their way, VC19 becoming less virulent, over half the jobs lost to covid at the outbreak of the pandemic have been restored (per the Treasurer's comments). This is not 'multiple years'... it's a few months!

I'm as keen as anyone to see international borders re-open. But a few months probably isn't going to make much difference given the progress we are making so far.

 

[RAM]

Indeed other countries are opening up well in advance of Australia.I did link to an article on switzerland but apparently behind a pay waal so some quotes.

But as economic stimulus packages are wound down across Europe and Covid-19 cases tick up, Bern has signalled it is the economy that must be the priority in the months ahead.

In a sign of the wealthy Alpine state’s bullishness, rules of social gatherings will under current plans be relaxed from October to allow groups of more than 1,000 to congregate. Ministers spent the week with representatives of the tourism and hospitality sector discussing how best to boost Switzerland’s important winter holiday season.


Five months on, Swiss public health authorities much better understood the dynamics and “that [lockdowns] are not sustainable”, she said. “There’s been a big shift in focus. What we’re seeing now in Switzerland is people getting used to the idea of living in a risk society. We’re asking: ‘how do we live with this?’”

Since Switzerland’s formal state of emergency ended in mid-June it has been left to the 26 individual cantons to set their own rules. They are as sanguine as the federal government. Zurich, the biggest city, introduced compulsory mask wearing in shops only last week, months after other European countries brought in similar legislation.



For some policymakers in Bern, the whole idea of a trade-off between the economy and public health was a false one. The strategy was never to defeat the virus using public policy tools, said one senior scientific adviser to the government in Bern, but to cope with it.

“The important thing is that we can manage the situation. When I look at other countries, maybe they’re less confident that they can,” the adviser said. “Maybe that’s why you’re seeing more border closures and hardline measures being taken and talked about elsewhere.”

Bullish Switzerland moves on from lockdown and focuses on economy

Critics warn of complacency but Bern believes the country must learn to live with virus

amp.ft.com

Interesting datapoint - standard treatment protocol in Switzerland is to use Hydroxychloroquine for anyone needing to be hospitalised.

Covid-19: hydroxychloroquine works, a proof ? | FranceSoir

Addendum as of July 16, 2020:On 14 July some people asked about the Swiss data. According to the latter, Switzerland has reclassified some patients. No information is available to date. We had contacted the OFSP without reply to date.

www.francesoir.fr

When the (fake?) Lancet article came out on the 'study' saying H was killing people - Switzerland stopped using H that day. Case fatality rate went up 4x. When it was revealed that the 'study' was not accurate then Switzerland re-instated the H treatment protocol but with a 7 day delay. Case fatality rate fell from 12-15% back to 3 to 4% over following days.



One US study (approx 3,000 participants in a hospital chain - Henry Ford Health System) also found a major benefit, was peer reviewed favourably but got near zero publicity. A comment they made was that the widely publicised studies used a very different dose level to what they had been using since the start in their facilities.

Now why would the anti-H studies use dose levels different to those used by doctors for the last 55 years?

A cynic would suggest that as treatments like Remdesivir at a cost of USD 2,000 vs off-patent H at USD 5 - lead to many more political donations & post-politics jobs.

Perhaps think about this in light of the documented scientists/doctors for hire or 'industry' bias that prolonged Big Tobacco, asbestos, PFAS, DDT etc for decades.

Hundreds of millions spent to do 'studies' that proved none of them caused cancer or any negative side effects.

Ethics & honesty come a distant last to self-interest.

 

[RAM]

My parents are the opposite! They've enjoyed their 85 years and want another 10 years doing the same. They're more than happy to be socially distanced and forego the hugs for a few short months.

In Victoria they had a report on the news that aged care residents being transferred to hospitals for their safety were only being admitted on the condition they signed a 'do not resuscitate, no assisted breathing, no ventilator' waiver. It made my father physically sick when he heard that.

So there are people across the whole spectrum. But my folks certainly don't want to die from this when a few months will bring huge advancements in the management of the virus.

If true then that is an illegal act. Federal Law mandates that NO person can be turned away from a public hospital.

If any AFFers living in Victoria have a few minutes to dig into the 'story' - if confirmed then please lodge a complaint with Dept of Health, your local Federal member & the Federal Police.

If it is unclear - then email/phone your local Federal member and demand they/their staff look into it. If you ring - ask the person answering the phone to spell their name for you - improves follow-up massively!

 

[p--and--t]

In Victoria they had a report on the news that aged care residents being transferred to hospitals for their safety were only being admitted on the condition they signed a 'do not resuscitate, no assisted breathing, no ventilator' waiver. It made my father physically sick when he heard that.

I read your post with a degree of incredulity. My understanding is that would be both illegal and immoral.

My instinct would be to fact check the source of that report.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I read your post with a degree of incredulity. My understanding is that would be both illegal and immoral.

My instinct would be to fact check the source of that report.

This story was just after the spike in deaths from the private aged care homes in Victoria. And were reports directly from the children.

An interview between Peta Credlin and the Health Minister, Greg hunt, confirms that hospitals had, in some cases, resisted taking patients from aged care: Interview with Peta Credlin on Sky News about coronavirus (COVID-19)

Greg Hunt states:

Everyone who is in an aged care facility and has the need, must be given passage to a hospital in Victoria.​

​

We have worked very hard to get that guarantee from the Victorian Government.​

​

But I do know, because I've had cases drawn to my attention, that there's been some resistance within the public health system at different times.​

​

We are winning that battle, but I want to be clear and categorical that every patient with clinical need must be given a bed no matter what their age.​

This 3AW interview also confirms two patients were refused admission: Victoria’s ‘disposable people’: Aged care residents with COVID-19 turned away from hospital

A letter provided to the families of residents at Glenlyn Aged Care in Glenroy reveals the Royal Melbourne Hospital turned away two patients with coronavirus who were wandering around the nursing home, increasing the risk of the virus spreading in the facility.​

So I do believe there could be some basis to the children claiming they were asked to sign DNRs and refuse other types of care.

 

[oznflfan]

Booking QFF NT to London return via Perth on 18th September. Normandy landing beaches, German car factories and Polish Speedway. Gives me something to look forward to, even if I have to cancel (prob not greatest use of QFF but can cancel at little cost 24 hours prior to trip).

I will take vaccine next year if and when available. I'm giving it a 40% chance of happening. Will update monthly my %.

 

[p--and--t]

This story was just after the spike in deaths from the private aged care homes in Victoria. And were reports directly from the children.

An interview between Peta Credlin and the Health Minister, Greg hunt, confirms that hospitals had, in some cases, resisted taking patients from aged care: Interview with Peta Credlin on Sky News about coronavirus (COVID-19)

Greg Hunt states:

Everyone who is in an aged care facility and has the need, must be given passage to a hospital in Victoria.​

​

We have worked very hard to get that guarantee from the Victorian Government.​

​

But I do know, because I've had cases drawn to my attention, that there's been some resistance within the public health system at different times.​

​

We are winning that battle, but I want to be clear and categorical that every patient with clinical need must be given a bed no matter what their age.​

This 3AW interview also confirms two patients were refused admission: Victoria’s ‘disposable people’: Aged care residents with COVID-19 turned away from hospital

A letter provided to the families of residents at Glenlyn Aged Care in Glenroy reveals the Royal Melbourne Hospital turned away two patients with coronavirus who were wandering around the nursing home, increasing the risk of the virus spreading in the facility.​

So I do believe there could be some basis to the children claiming they were asked to sign DNRs and refuse other types of care.

Thank-you for that info.

Now my suspicions are up further; Peta Cretlin and Greg Hunt when he was in the process of pressing Andrews

 

[RAM]

Thank-you for that info.

Now my suspicions are up further; Peta Cretlin and Greg Hunt when he was in the process of pressing Andrews

In the ongoing nursing home 'commission' NSW Dept of Health emails & texts produced with DoH telling Dorothy Henderson Lodge NOT to send any patients & two ambulances turned away.

As it was 'mentioned' at the Commission - our local Federal members said they could do NOTHING about it.

So, before that 'out' presents itself for Victorian Federal members.....

 

[james4321]

Thank-you for that info.

Now my suspicions are up further; Peta Cretlin and Greg Hunt when he was in the process of pressing Andrews

Personally I would not rely on anything with Credlins name associated with it, nor for that matter any of the "Sky after Dark" bunch

 

[love_the_life]

Booking QFF NT to London return via Perth on 18th September. Normandy landing beaches, German car factories and Polish Speedway. Gives me something to look forward to, even if I have to cancel (prob not greatest use of QFF but can cancel at little cost 24 hours prior to trip).

I will take vaccine next year if and when available. I'm giving it a 40% chance of happening. Will update monthly my %.

I take it you are referring to September 2021.