Qantas / Emirates tie up (Partnership inc. Codeshare, Status)

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There are some interesting reads in the submissions.. including one person who emailed a single page in...

Qantas Airways Limited & Emirates - Authorisations - A91332 & A91333

Does anyone else note the irony of this submission: D12+174715.pdf

'I act for a the Israel Law Centre, a human rights organisation concerned with the abuse of the human rights of citizens of democratic countries by non-democratic countries and related organisations.'

Really?!

All of the Zionist lobby's submissions seem to discuss the difficult that travellers with visas to Israel may face in DXB. Interesting that they don't seem to consider it just as, if not, less difficult than anyone Arab, Muslim or a human rights NGO worker flying through TLV.
 
this one is a crack up...

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/trim...VersionId=1094721&trimFileName=D12+142229.pdf

Hi
I would like to offer a thought that may be taken into account while deciding on the future of theQantas -Emirates alliance.



The rationale put forward by Joyce is that Qantas cannot survive the hard times it faces alone,especially on the international route. (The domestic routes are extremely profitable due to their abilityto fleece the market, especially on routes that are not to main centres).
Joyce appears to have been very short sighted in his management of the company. The debacle withthe grounding of the fleet permanently damaged the Qantas name and cost immeasurable loss inbusiness due to loss of loyalty, trust and plain anger with Qantas. He also should have seen all thiscoming and taken more appropriate measures when the GFC started. No surprises that they are


where th
This alliance is a smoke screen, and spells the beginning of the end of the Qantas branding. Fixmanagement and the problem will slowly fix itself.
Proof of the insincerity of Qantas management is the coughtail party held at the Part Hyatt in Sydneycelebrating the new found alliance.
Firstly, the cheek to assume that the ACCC's ruling is irrelevant.


Secondly, if the airline is in such financial trouble and doom and gloom for the future, how do theyjustify the lavish expense and ostentatious display, thumbing their nose at you and the Australianpublic? Even celebrity chef, Neil Perry was there hand making crepes!
Surely, the real answer is to replace Joyce not agree to an alliance with Emirates?



Correct me if i am wrong but didn't Joyce start after the GFC hit???
 
It would have just confused the ACCC cos it confuses the heck out of me - all them different opinion!

Considering that every submission would need to be summarised / documented in the decision, I'd be feeling sorry for the person having to prepare the determination document. :shocked:

Does anyone else note the irony of this submission:

...

'I act for a the Israel Law Centre, a human rights organisation concerned with the abuse of the human rights of citizens of democratic countries by non-democratic countries and related organisations.'

Really?!

All of the Zionist lobby's submissions seem to discuss the difficult that travellers with visas to Israel may face in DXB. Interesting that they don't seem to consider it just as, if not, less difficult than anyone Arab, Muslim or a human rights NGO worker flying through TLV.

I'm assuming that the latter consideration (rights of Arabs, Muslims etc. through TLV) would be considered minor to the interests of Australia if it ever came to it, but that said El Al is not a contender for operations to Australia any time soon (unless they already have codeshares here).

There was another submission which generally had a go at the human rights or what not of UAE in general and basically saying that if this alliance did get approved then there should be a huge caveat to all travellers about transiting through DXB, including severe warnings about drinking and extra marital affairs (probably the only thing that might put people off is that anyone who is not married or are a family must stay in separate rooms).

I didn't want to bring those up again since we've already had a huge discussion on that; we don't need another one and the vitriol factory doesn't want to pay its workers overtime right now...

this one is a crack up...<snip>

I thought submissions actually had to be properly formed?

Well, there you have the power of democracy!

Begs to reason why someone didn't just submit thousands upon thousands of these? I'd like to think this is not the only person who is after Joyce's blood.
 
There was another submission which generally had a go at the human rights or what not of UAE in general and basically saying that if this alliance did get approved then there should be a huge caveat to all travellers about transiting through DXB, including severe warnings about drinking and extra marital affairs (probably the only thing that might put people off is that anyone who is not married or are a family must stay in separate rooms).

It would be interesting to know just how many people plan to actually stop over in UAE, and how many people will see nothing more than the airport terminal.
With exception to the guy who was kicked off a QF flight in CNS the other night, I'm sure most people can control themselves for a couple of hours whilst travelling.
 
Before any more information comes out, QF and EK have reapplied for interim approval, so this has to be approved before selling can begin.
 
Before any more information comes out, QF and EK have reapplied for interim approval, so this has to be approved before selling can begin.

Not sure if thats the case: “The ACCC also notes that Qantas and Emirates believe that they are able to undertake a significant amount of preparatory work without the need for interim authorisation.”

An interim authorization would be useless after yesterdays announcement I would have thought, not that I am an expert in red tape.
 
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An interim authorization would be useless after yesterdays announcement I would have thought, not that I am an expert in red tape.

I'm just going by the daily email that was sent to employees.
QF and EK apply for interim approval from
ACCC
– Yesterday, the Australian Competition
and Consumer Commission handed down its draft determination indicating it
proposes to grant authorisation for the Qantas and Emirates partnership for five
years – great news. Given the draft, QF and EK have now applied for interim
authorisation from the ACCC. Interim authorisation would give us an early green
light to commence discussions about pricing, sales and capacity (without interim
we will have to wait for a final determination, which is expected in March 2013,
to discuss these particular aspects.) If we are successful in receiving interim
authorisation, it will significantly bring forward some critical areas of
planning as we get ready for the first flights on 31 March 2013 (other
regulatory approvals are also required).
 
I'm just going by the daily email that was sent to employees.

Thats weird, I would have thought yesterdays announcement was a green light or a substantial leaning towards one, what the point if it does not allow planning to increase?
 
Thats weird, I would have thought yesterdays announcement was a green light or a substantial leaning towards one, what the point if it does not allow planning to increase?

That's was my line of thinking too. I guess it goes to show how much red tape there actually is.
 
Thats weird, I would have thought yesterdays announcement was a green light or a substantial leaning towards one, what the point if it does not allow planning to increase?


Yesterdays was an indication that they would be authorising. Until you are actually authorised, I doubt that you would want to be starting things like pricing coordination in earnest.
 
As an aside - I thought it interesting that in the interviews yesterday (albeit this aspect quoted on Plane Talking), Sims was saying that the ACCC was unconcerned with the profitability (or indeed viability) of Qantas, and that the role of the ACCC was to protect consumers and maintain competition. Does anyone else see the failure of this logic? If QF fails because it is not profitable, then that could take a competitor out of the market altogether (aka Ansett). How is that good for competition? I really do feel that sometimes the platitudes of these regulators show just how little they understand about market dynamics.

OT slightly, but what gives with Ben 'Anti-QF' Sandilands? Besides the constant recycling of the same misgivings about Qantas, does he really add any value to the aviation debate? Rant over...
 
Before any more information comes out, QF and EK have reapplied for interim approval, so this has to be approved before selling can begin.
They had actually applied for interim approval back on September 6th (when the tie-up was officially announced), however they withdrew that application on October 4th:

Qantas and Emirates withdraw application for interim authorisation

Media Release - Kangaroo Route prepares to hop via Middle East

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....s-tie-up-partnership-39712-31.html#post690839


...
Quite interesting approach (not really sure what the ramifications of the action are, though withdrawal of an application seems to show a bit of a retreat to me). I have a feeling, along with the extension of FRA services, that the full QF/EK alliance, if approved at all, will be in force later than April 2013.
They've probably studied things a bit more, and decided that fighting the objections is to much of a distraction (and may hold up the final authorisation). Anyway, as we saw today, there's a whole lot of things they can do without the authorisation anyway.
If they had a good solid case to start with, then why would they not be in a position to address the objections without much trouble?....
Perhaps they have withdrawn the application with the intention of updating it and resubmitting so they can address any of the concerns that have already been raised by others?
 
As an aside - I thought it interesting that in the interviews yesterday (albeit this aspect quoted on Plane Talking), Sims was saying that the ACCC was unconcerned with the profitability (or indeed viability) of Qantas, and that the role of the ACCC was to protect consumers and maintain competition. Does anyone else see the failure of this logic? If QF fails because it is not profitable, then that could take a competitor out of the market altogether (aka Ansett). How is that good for competition? I really do feel that sometimes the platitudes of these regulators show just how little they understand about market dynamics.

I think the profitability or viability of a company doesn't need to be necessarily taken into account and certainly the ACCC, notwithstanding its lack of teeth, makes it clear that it is sided nearly entirely with consumers. And we all know consumers do not care about a company's particulars - they only care for getting a product or service at high quality for lowest cost. A ruling that mentioned or accounted for QF's possible flailing financials would likely attract scorn from both consumers and the business community. If anything, the ACCC is looking at QF's market share and seeing high figures (domestically) and would not care to see it fall more in order to facilitate cut throat competition and the implied lower airfares (i.e. "crusading a win for consumers"). Hence why Sims was likely hesitant to grant this determination (with reduced term), as "helping QF" actually doesn't really improve competition, so to speak.

Even if profitability were considered seriously in a decision, the way I see it the ACCC would likely consider QF as being one of those companies that won't fail (it can reduce, subdivide and Jetstar-ise and what not, but it won't disappear), so it will, in its wisdom, not consider that the competition will necessarily decrease; if anything, it will pride itself on much stiffer competition by allowing key inroads into the market by competitors, including Virgin. In the worst case if QF did disappear, then it's not like they have not dealt with a domestic monopoly before (a la AN collapse) and I suppose they will give themselves something to do as well as appear to be the heroes when they promote a much more liberal domestic market and incentivise new or developing airlines to fill the QF void (a la the VA revolution we have had in recent years).
 
Perhaps the interim approval is QF and EK making sure they dot the 'i's and cross the 't's to avoid any repeat of the freight collusion penalties that beset a number of airlines this year.

once bitten...
 
I think the profitability or viability of a company doesn't need to be necessarily taken into account and certainly the ACCC, notwithstanding its lack of teeth, makes it clear that it is sided nearly entirely with consumers. And we all know consumers do not care about a company's particulars - they only care for getting a product or service at high quality for lowest cost. A ruling that mentioned or accounted for QF's possible flailing financials would likely attract scorn from both consumers and the business community. If anything, the ACCC is looking at QF's market share and seeing high figures (domestically) and would not care to see it fall more in order to facilitate cut throat competition and the implied lower airfares (i.e. "crusading a win for consumers"). Hence why Sims was likely hesitant to grant this determination (with reduced term), as "helping QF" actually doesn't really improve competition, so to speak.

Even if profitability were considered seriously in a decision, the way I see it the ACCC would likely consider QF as being one of those companies that won't fail (it can reduce, subdivide and Jetstar-ise and what not, but it won't disappear), so it will, in its wisdom, not consider that the competition will necessarily decrease; if anything, it will pride itself on much stiffer competition by allowing key inroads into the market by competitors, including Virgin. In the worst case if QF did disappear, then it's not like they have not dealt with a domestic monopoly before (a la AN collapse) and I suppose they will give themselves something to do as well as appear to be the heroes when they promote a much more liberal domestic market and incentivise new or developing airlines to fill the QF void (a la the VA revolution we have had in recent years).

Great analysis anatol. I guess what I was driving at was that sometimes these 'platitudes' seem to understate the interplay between competitors and competition - i.e. there is no competition without competitors. While I concede profitability of an airline is maybe not directly be a relevant consideration in the ACCC authorisation process, I'd suggest it's a little disingenuous for Sims to make out like the survival of a competitor is not a relevant consideration - indeed, my take on some of the draft determination is that it was considered.
 
I guess most of you will have seen the QFF email headed "Booking London and Europe with confidence". The mention of the proposed 31 March start date had me searching for fare/flight options. I fly regularly KBL-xx_-BNE rt and my last couple of flights have been through AUH with VA/4Q; where the flight options are limited because VA and 4Q only operate a few times a week and they don't always line up. The DXB-KBL pair offers several flights a day with a number of airlines. (OT: I much prefer AUH over DXB as a transit point).

Looking at options for DXB-BNE on 10/5, and unfortunately QF website provides no fares or timings as they don't have a UAE website yet. Presumably that will happen down the track.

Expert flyer trawled up some good flight options from the point of view of timing, albeit all via MEL or SYD. That is fine as the overall time is much the same as say BNE-SIN-DXB. Direct flights on QF metal BNE-DXB would have been nice, but I didn't see that offered. Presumably we would get EK 380s some time as Perth has.

QF have published some Y, J and F fares out of the UAE and there are some good Y fares listed including a super saver (code LSAE) for AUD1020++, valid on any QF, EK or JQ flight.

However, they haven't published any Y+ fares out of DXB. Leaves me wondering whether they would offer Y+ out of DXB at all; it would be an interesting negotiation with EK who don't offer any Y+ product at all.

Would be a shame if QF didn't offer Y+ seats out of DXB, a unique selling point for their metal. Also be a shame if they didn't offer mixed fares to and from Europe with Y+ to DXB and Y onward. VA has some excellent value fares along these lines but is not in a similar position to QF because its flights terminate in AUH.

Incidentally I have been following this tie-up from a Gulf perspective; Arabian Business ran a cover story a month ago on the growth of EK and EY and mentioned the various alliances they have entered into as good for those airlines and the UAE generally. This is typical of their coverage, and it barely mentions their alliance partners at all
Fly me to the boom: the rise of Emirates and Etihad - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com.

They published this story today
S&P says Emirates deal no 'panacea' for Qantas - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com

which says it all really ... the alliance looks to me like a great deal for EK and no panacea for QF

Cheers skip
 
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Emirates don't have a Y+ option on their website so I'm guessing that will never be an option as they won't be changing their configs just for Qantas.
 
Emirates don't have a Y+ option on their website so I'm guessing that will never be an option as they won't be changing their configs just for Qantas.

Agreed: In the same way EY don't offer either Y+ seats or Y+ fares; you have to book VA on VA metal to get Y+ or mixed fares, which is a marketing bonus for them.

Cheers skip
 
I''ll have a look around for a quote but basically Qantas have said that if you book a y+ fare and it included an Emirates operated sector, you will be in the main Y cabin for that sector.
 
I''ll have a look around for a quote but basically Qantas have said that if you book a y+ fare and it included an Emirates operated sector, you will be in the main Y cabin for that sector.

That is going to catch a lot of people out then. Maybe Qamtas won't offer y+ anymore for flights likely to be using Emirates planes. That would be the most honest thing to do.
 
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