Qantas / Emirates tie up (Partnership inc. Codeshare, Status)
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markis10
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Thats quite normal to have an influx differential versus outflux at times, if you average it across the year the figures are quite even:
[TABLE="width: 567"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]114,703[/TD]
[TD]132,783[/TD]
[TD]86.38[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]115,248[/TD]
[TD]133,528[/TD]
[TD]86.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FLTS IN[/TD]
[TD]PAX IN[/TD]
[TD]SEATS IN[/TD]
[TD]LOAD %[/TD]
[TD]FLTS OUT[/TD]
[TD]PAX OUT[/TD]
[TD]SEATS OUT[/TD]
[TD]LOAD % [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
My comment about not believing everything you here was in direct relation to what QF said about the route, not to mention its sudden extension when it was to be culled, if things are going bad why not chop off the dead wood as soon as you can ???
Pure load does not equal profit, especially on double hops where you have far greater crew costs and an a/c sitting on the ground for half a day. If it were profitable enough Qantas would keep it. Pure and simple.
cmon0005
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This is a great link Markis, really gives some perspective on how some decisions made have impacts.
For example QF used to fly SYD-BOM direct until June 2009 when "JB" canned it in favour of SIN-BOM.
Based on the figures you can see an immediate drop in the pax numbers, and freight, no wonder they canned it entirely last year, but it could have been revived as a SYD-BOM direct service again, their numbers back this up, bad past decisions coming back to haunt.
[TABLE="width: 695"]
[TR]
[TD]Month[/TD]
[TD] Operator[/TD]
[TD]Country to/from[/TD]
[TD]Passengers In[/TD]
[TD]Freight In[/TD]
[TD]Passengers Out[/TD]
[TD]Freight Out[/TD]
[TD]Mail Out[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Apr-09[/TD]
[TD]Qantas Airways[/TD]
[TD]India[/TD]
[TD]2,254[/TD]
[TD]66.7[/TD]
[TD]1,999[/TD]
[TD]19.1[/TD]
[TD]4.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]May-09[/TD]
[TD]Qantas Airways[/TD]
[TD]India[/TD]
[TD]2,637[/TD]
[TD]58.9[/TD]
[TD]2,546[/TD]
[TD]22.1[/TD]
[TD]4.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jun-09[/TD]
[TD]Qantas Airways[/TD]
[TD]India[/TD]
[TD]315[/TD]
[TD]18.9[/TD]
[TD]401[/TD]
[TD]9.4[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jul-09[/TD]
[TD]Qantas Airways[/TD]
[TD]India[/TD]
[TD]438[/TD]
[TD]16.1[/TD]
[TD]254[/TD]
[TD]2.6[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
moa999
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There were some comments around that EK has limited flight rights into Germany, so the extension of FRA may be because it is not possible to shift all those pax...
Personally I would not be surprised if QF5/6 end up going via DXB rather than SIN.
Personally I would not be surprised if QF5/6 end up going via DXB rather than SIN.
markis10
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Of course they have double costs for a double hop but they are also often charging double in terms of the fares (thereabouts), like I said why extend its demise if its doing so badly? The publically available data out there if people bother to check does not support what is being said, if Qantas cannot make a route profitable with a load of 86% average, then they have far more serious issues with many routes and not just Frankfurt, I suppose New York will be the next one thats not doing well
!I've noticed a few posts indicating that EK codeshares aren't available ex-PER. I just did a search and I see a number of options - some on EK all the way (QF numbers) and one joining QF9 in DXB. Price for an April departure is about $1700. Seems ok. No BA options showing.
Of course they have double costs for a double hop but they are also often charging double in terms of the fares (thereabouts), like I said why extend its demise if its doing so badly? The publically available data out there if people bother to check does not support what is being said, if Qantas cannot make a route profitable with a load of 86% average, then they have far more serious issues with many routes and not just Frankfurt, I suppose New York will be the next one thats not doing well
It is not double the cost, more like tripple the cost (you need to pay and factor in the cost of the crews resting between legs), not to mention the loss of revenue by having the a/c sitting all day. Also as I mentioned load is NOT the telling factor, yield, including freight is. If the yield was there Qantas would still be flying, clearly the yield is not sufficent to justify it.
markis10
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I have never run an airline, not sure about you, so we are just playing with figures that may not reflect reality, however I would take you to task over costs as well, crew costs are not doubled because of a second hop, they have to rest even with a turnaround, so your assertions dont make any sense, and as for an aircraft sitting all day, thats no different to a pure SIN run ex Aus where utilization in the air is 14 from 24 hours.
I would suggest EK is probably a good example of why double hops do work, they have a lot where Aus is in the middle or you go via Asia to the middle east, that fact along with the figures I posted before fly in the face of what you say I would suggest.
As for yields mattering, that of course is true (given you cannot have yield without load) but note airline economics are measured by ASKs and RPKs, again making the data posted pertinent as opposed to sweeping generalizations that double hops dont work
. Its interesting that both passenger and freight figures are equivalent to the UK flights on a per flight basis using the BITRE data.You have not explained why the demise was extended either, as you say:
Its obviously profitable enough to keep post March 31.
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mannej
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I think the fares are progressively being loaded, as the prices are also looking more as they should.
blackcat20
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Did some pricing yesterday arvo, got a good one at $1700 to come back from Rome. Few hours later when I went to book it was $2900. Ouch. Still $2200 for an EK flight number for the first leg. Or $1800 to go via LHR...
I have never run an airline, not sure about you, so we are just playing with figures that may not reflect reality, however I would take you to task over costs as well, crew costs are not doubled because of a second hop, they have to rest even with a turnaround, so your assertions dont make any sense, and as for an aircraft sitting all day, thats no different to a pure SIN run ex Aus where utilization in the air is 14 from 24 hours. I would suggest EK is probably a good example of why double hops do work, they have a lot where Aus is in the middle or you go via Asia to the middle east, that fact along with the figures I posted before fly in the face of what you say I would suggest.
As for yields mattering, that of course is true (given you cannot have yield without load) but note airline economics are measured by ASKs and RPKs, again making the data posted pertinent as opposed to sweeping generalizations that double hops dont work
You have not explained why the demise was extended either, as you say:
Its obviously profitable enough to keep post March 31.
You have figures that you are trying to spin to support your argument. Remember the old addage lies, damm lies and statistics. Which ever way you spin those figures they do NOT in any way shape or form reflect the reality of profit. You will not find any publicaly available data that shows this. What counts is how much are you earning, how much is it costing and is that the most profitible use of a resource or could you make/save more money by using it elsewhere. For example Qantas could sell tickets to London for $1 each and have a load of 99.99%, but quite clearly they won't be making any money.
As for my claim of tripple the costs, simple fact that to do Frankfurt and London you need 3 aircraft and at least 5 crews to do a daily frequency and the return on those tickets is not 3 times the cost of running a service that only needs 1 aircraft to do a daily frequency.
As for why Qantas has kept FRA maybe it is beacuse they are making a profit on the route, but could make more money by using that a/c elsewhere or sending it to pasture. Clearly the EK aliance gives them the options they need to carry the load but at far less cost.
moa999
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An AusBT article
Emirates: Skywards Miles earned on all Qantas International flights - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller
Skywards Tier Miles earnt on all QF international flights (codeshare and direct) and domestic sectors of international trip, but not on purely Qantas domestic services.
Qantas FF SCs and Points on QF/EK codeshare flights, points only on EK flight number
(consistent with the note I posted the other day)
Emirates: Skywards Miles earned on all Qantas International flights - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller
Skywards Tier Miles earnt on all QF international flights (codeshare and direct) and domestic sectors of international trip, but not on purely Qantas domestic services.
Qantas FF SCs and Points on QF/EK codeshare flights, points only on EK flight number
(consistent with the note I posted the other day)
Stoopidsteve
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which is at odds with advice on QF site Qantas and Emirates Partnership | Qantas :
"Frequent FlyerFor travel on/after 31 March 2013, Qantas Frequent Flyer members can earn Qantas Frequent Flyer points and Status Credits on all Qantas (QF) marketed flights that are operated by Emirates (EK) irrespective of when the booking was created. To earn points and Status credits your ticket must have the Qantas (QF) flight number. Visit qantas.com/earningpoints and qantas.com/statuscredits for more information on earning on Qantas.
Further details in relation to the frequent flyer aspects of the partnership including earning and using Qantas Frequent Flyer points, benefits, recognition and lounge access) will be made available soon."
TheInsider
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Which part?
Australia's highest-earning Velocity Frequent Flyer credit card: Offer expires: 21 Jan 2025
- Earn 60,000 bonus Velocity Points
- Get unlimited Virgin Australia Lounge access
- Enjoy a complimentary return Virgin Australia domestic flight each year
- Earn 60,000 bonus Velocity Points
- Get unlimited Virgin Australia Lounge access
- Enjoy a complimentary return Virgin Australia domestic flight each year
anat0l
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Where is the discrepancy?
Bottom line: need QF marketed ticket to earn SCs.
Rather unfortunate that this restriction is so, as I believe this has a high risk of confusing people, especially since EK marketed flights are offered through the QF booking engine. Perhaps it is a lucky consequence that many of the EK flights will have a QF code on them, albeit they will not nominally be bookable in isolation. Also, that stops any savvy tricks related to booking on EK's site when prices are cheaper there.
flychrisfly
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Note that Qantas already have a number of code shares on this flight (at least the SIN-SYD portion) with BA, AF, 9W, IB, MU and AY. may be in Qantas's interests to not send this flight via DXB.
Thanks for that. Must have been updated overnight. I can see them now too. EXCELLENT
Anna
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