Qantas Fleet

[sjd]

Flew Pixie Rourke - Dash 8-200 (rego VH-TQG) today. 18 yo bird.

Has you hearing recovered?

I said, "HAS YOUR HEARING RECOVERED?".

 

[markis10]

Flew Pixie Rourke - Dash 8-200 (rego VH-TQG) today. 18 yo bird.

A young un compared to VH-QQB which is MSN 003 and the oldest Dash flying at 30 years. With Skytrans.

 

[Foreigner]

Has you hearing recovered?

I said, "HAS YOUR HEARING RECOVERED?".

I know what you mean...

anyway, two pilots and one stewardess. Noticed her reading pre-takeoff announcement and heard her say to ground staff that changes had been made to it.

 

[eastwest101]

Oldest dom QF A332s and the only two with the orphan config re seating.

Sorry markis10 - you mentioned EBM and EBN and the "orphan seating" - what is orphan or non-standard about the seating layout, in J or in Y on those two particular aircraft?

 

[CaviAck]

Sorry markis10 - you mentioned EBM and EBN and the "orphan seating" - what is orphan or non-standard about the seating layout, in J or in Y?

They're the only ones with the 36J 265Y seat layout.

 

[eastwest101]

They're the only ones with the 36J 265Y seat layout.

Sorry - should of clarified question better. Is EBN and EBMs J class 2-3-2 with 37" pitch recliners or is it 2-2-2 with 60" angle flat?

 

[mannej]

Oldest dom QF A332s and the only two with the orphan config re seating.

Aren't they much younger than most of the JQ332's coming back though?

 

[markis10]

Aren't they much younger than most of the JQ332's coming back though?

Not compared to the leased JQ birds coming back, the initial ones are all owned by QF given they were pretty much free.

 

[RickyT84]

Sorry - should of clarified question better. Is EBN and EBMs J class 2-3-2 with 37" pitch recliners or is it 2-2-2 with 60" angle flat?

These are the ones with the Silverwing recliners in a 2x2x2 configuration (i.e. no middle seats) unlike the JQ birds coming back to JQ. The are four international configured A332s which are fitted with Skybed mk1 (EBG, EBH, EBI and EBL).

 

[mannej]

Sorry - should of clarified question better. Is EBN and EBMs J class 2-3-2 with 37" pitch recliners or is it 2-2-2 with 60" angle flat?

Out of the 332's flying for QF currently, there are 4 different configurations.

EBB uses the Millenium Recliners, with a seat pitch of roughly 37-38". This is the ex-QF-exJQ back at QF type
EBG,H,I,L has the Skybeds with the 60" seatpitch
EBM,N has the Silverwing recliners (2-2-2)
and finally the rest have the 2-3-2 Recaro Recliners.

 

[ajw373]

All academic with the new J seats coming in next year or so. Everyone needs to be touched so doubt the seat type in J will influence which ones get returned to the leassor.

 

[dougieboy]

Some useful data points for the B747-400 vs B777 - Philippines Airlines is retiring the last of its B747-400s (2 down and 2 to go shortly) and detailed the difference in both operating efficiency and maintenance costs. It expects to save USD $120m on 1 long haul route per year.


The airline expects to save as much as $120 million per year in fuel and maintenance costs by flying the Boeing 777 to the United States, rather than the Boeing 747. According to PAL President Ramon Ang, the Boeing 777 aircraft consume 25 percent less fuel compared to the Boeing 747 fleet. In addition, the maintenance costs are approximately 40 percent lower, while the Boeing 777 aircraft is overall 25 percent more efficient.


Given Q's fleet size and similar ages the equivalent saving should be in the order of USD400m pa. Then add to that the increase in other cargo capacity gained - why such reluctance? Especially as Boeing is desperate to write orders for 300 additional current B777s to keep the production line operating until the next generation B777 enters production. Prices are being talked of at 55% of list. Similarly Boeing has 9 early B787-8s wanting to find a buyer (models 11-19) at any price.


Although they are less efficient than current production models (3-5% higher fuel burn and approx 6 fewer seats or lower range trade-off) at a price they should be compelling vs 12 yr old A330s. Maintenance savings alone should make it worth exploring if the aim of Q mgmt is to reduce operating costs and improve reliability.

This was the kind of analysis, a real-world comparison of the 747 vs 777 to move further along optimising profits as a short term interim measure for QF. Don't have to always wait for the latest and greatest on the leading edge airframe as time never usually is never on an airlines side. And priced at a substantial discount to market rates. Interesting to note that there are available 787-8 frames (with early airframe issues etc) that would look great in QF domestic colours. I recall another blogger mentioned the fact of a QF 747 spending more time in the hangar due to performance issues then flying and only further adds to the imperative of identifying and making a commitment to reaching for a better outcome, now. There are always other options available to the board where the grass is always greener but they keep choosing weeds. It is important for management to be seen to be doing something positive that is leading you further along the path and start generating the momentum to counter the total write off mentality perception and contempt that most of the flying public have for this board. Start playing the public relations game and start the process of persuasion. A dying art thesedays.

 

[Flyerqf]

A332 VH-EBA is due back from SIN to BNE tomorrow night to be converted to QF. (Has already been repainted into QF livery)

EBC arrived in SIN yesterday to be repainting after being converted to QF in BNE.

EBD arrived from JQ in BNE on Friday to be converted to QF. Repainting in SIN will follow.

EBC should be in service at QF on 22/9, EBA in about 4 weeks and EBD in about 6-8 weeks.

These are the last A332 to transfer from JQ to QF this year, with JQ not expecting any further B788 deliveries until next year.

This takes Qantas A332 fleet to 16 + 10 A333s.

There are only 4 A332s left at JQ - EBE, EBF, EBJ & EBK - and only two of these will make their way to QF, with the other 2 being returned to lessor as part of the QF international transformation plan.

 

[samh004]

Thanks for a most informative post there!

 

[RAM]

A332 VH-EBA is due back from SIN to BNE tomorrow night to be converted to QF. (Has already been repainted into QF livery)

EBC arrived in SIN yesterday to be repainting after being converted to QF in BNE.

EBD arrived from JQ in BNE on Friday to be converted to QF. Repainting in SIN will follow.

EBC should be in service at QF on 22/9, EBA in about 4 weeks and EBD in about 6-8 weeks.

These are the last A332 to transfer from JQ to QF this year, with JQ not expecting any further B788 deliveries until next year.

This takes Qantas A332 fleet to 16 + 10 A333s.

There are only 4 A332s left at JQ - EBE, EBF, EBJ & EBK - and only two of these will make their way to QF, with the other 2 being returned to lessor as part of the QF international transformation plan.

So Q gets the high maintenance costs, low service reliability and JQ gets the high efficiency 20%+ lower operating cost planes - seems fair.

Note the 3 planes A, C and D are now (data as at 30.6.14) just under or at 12 years old. With friends like AJ & the board - Q needs enemies...

[TD="class: xl26, width: 64"]As at:[/TD]
[TD="class: xl28, width: 73"]30/06/2014[/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 142"][/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 104"][/TD]
[TD="width: 229"][/TD]

[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl26"][/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[TD="class: xl34"]MSN
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]

[TD="class: xl34"]Type
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]

[TD="class: xl34"]Delivery date
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]

[TD="class: xl29"]Original Delivery Date
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]

[TD="class: xl29"]First Flight Date
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="class: xl29"]Age[/TD]
[TD="class: xl29"]Delivered Age[/TD]
[TD="class: xl29"]True Age
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]

[TD="align: left"][/TD]

[TD="class: xl34"]Registration
[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="class: xl29"]Remark[/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 506 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-201[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]23/12/2006[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]12/03/2003[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]7/02/2003[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.52[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.30[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.39[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBC [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"]From Q[/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 508 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-201[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]15/02/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]5/12/2002[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]11/10/2002[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.37[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.57[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.72[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBA [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"]From Q, Stored 03/2014 to 07/2014[/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 513 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-201[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]1/11/2006[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]21/04/2003[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]7/02/2003[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.66[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.19[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]11.39[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBD [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"]From Q[/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 842 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-202[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]21/06/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]21/06/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]29/05/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.03[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.03[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]7.09[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBE [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"][/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 853 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-202[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]24/08/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]24/08/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]13/07/2007[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.85[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.85[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.97[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBF [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"][/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 940 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-202[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]7/12/2010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]8/06/2008[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]20/05/2008[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]3.56[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.06[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBJ [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"]From Q[/TD]

[TD="class: xl24, width: 64, align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 64"] 945 [/TD]
[TD="class: xl32, width: 73"]330-203[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]4/01/2010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 142"]5/08/2008[/TD]
[TD="class: xl33, width: 104"]1/07/2008[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]4.48[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]5.90[/TD]
[TD="class: xl27, width: 104"]6.00[/TD]
[TD="class: xl31, width: 104"] VH-EBK [/TD]
[TD="class: xl25, width: 229"]From Q[/TD]

[TD="class: xl30, width: 104"]6.35 Yrs
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl30, width: 104"]8.56 Yrs
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl30, width: 104"]8.67 Yrs
[/TD]

 

[mannej]

What stats do you have to back up that the 330's provide low service reliability, or is it just a sweeping statement without much substance?

 

[RAM]

What stats do you have to back up that the 330's provide low service reliability, or is it just a sweeping statement without much substance?

The airbus web site extolling the virtues of buying each of the upgrades to the A330s over the last decade. Just go through the media releases and you'll see all the operating gains vs the older models quoted. or go to a third party site for model comparisons.

I included some of these in earlier posts on this thread and the 28 Aug results thread.

Maintenance increases as the air frame ages through flying hours and operational cycles (landings/take-offs). Think of a new car on steroi_s - early service charges and time required are minimal. Then think of a machine going from effective temperatures (direct sun at 40+ degrees to -40 degrees when cruising). The impact on the airframe from landings - remember you are in a padded seat and you feel the contact.

Did you read my post on the real-world costs quoted by Phillipine Airlines of the savings from replacing their B747-400s on just one route - annual savings of USD 120m.

Maintenance and fuel costs are big components to operating cost.

As for availability have a look at the difference in operational hours for the different aged planes on a month by month basis. With some of Q's B747-400s for example they lost 90/181 operational days from 1.1.14 to 30.6.14 (some were written up in this forum where members were left at the airport waiting for a replacement plane etc).

 

[ajw373]

The airbus web site extolling the virtues of buying each of the upgrades to the A330s over the last decade. Just go through the media releases and you'll see all the operating gains vs the older models quoted. or go to a third party site for model comparisons.

I included some of these in earlier posts on this thread and the 28 Aug results thread.

Maintenance increases as the air frame ages through flying hours and operational cycles (landings/take-offs). Think of a new car on steroi_s - early service charges and time required are minimal. Then think of a machine going from effective temperatures (direct sun at 40+ degrees to -40 degrees when cruising). The impact on the airframe from landings - remember you are in a padded seat and you feel the contact.

Did you read my post on the real-world costs quoted by Phillipine Airlines of the savings from replacing their B747-400s on just one route - annual savings of USD 120m.

Maintenance and fuel costs are big components to operating cost.

As for availability have a look at the difference in operational hours for the different aged planes on a month by month basis. With some of Q's B747-400s for example they lost 90/181 operational days from 1.1.14 to 30.6.14 (some were written up in this forum where members were left at the airport waiting for a replacement plane etc).

Nothing you wrote above has anything to do with reliability which is what you were asked about. You made the sweeping statement infering low reliability on the A330's whereas reality reliability had nothing to do with age. But with the A330's it is one aircraft that Qantas is VERY happy with.

Also airlines factor in whole of life operating costs into their purchasing decisions. They would know full well the cost maintaining a mid life aircraft (which is what 12 years is). If you threw out anything just because it gets midlife and replace with the latest and greatest as you seem to suggest the whole of life costs would be higher due to shorter life. Also your real world comparisons whilst no doubting the info is for one airline. If the 777 was so perfect for every airline then every airline would be flying them. Airlines employ people to look at fleet, look at costs and make the right decisions for that airline.

 

[mannej]

The airbus web site extolling the virtues of buying each of the upgrades to the A330s over the last decade. Just go through the media releases and you'll see all the operating gains vs the older models quoted. or go to a third party site for model comparisons.

I included some of these in earlier posts on this thread and the 28 Aug results thread.

Maintenance increases as the air frame ages through flying hours and operational cycles (landings/take-offs). Think of a new car on steroi_s - early service charges and time required are minimal. Then think of a machine going from effective temperatures (direct sun at 40+ degrees to -40 degrees when cruising). The impact on the airframe from landings - remember you are in a padded seat and you feel the contact.

Did you read my post on the real-world costs quoted by Phillipine Airlines of the savings from replacing their B747-400s on just one route - annual savings of USD 120m.

Maintenance and fuel costs are big components to operating cost.

As for availability have a look at the difference in operational hours for the different aged planes on a month by month basis. With some of Q's B747-400s for example they lost 90/181 operational days from 1.1.14 to 30.6.14 (some were written up in this forum where members were left at the airport waiting for a replacement plane etc).

Sorry, but that hasn't answered my question. You are referring to the amount of tech days one 747 has had in the last year that has had nothing to do with the 330's.

I still don't see how your argument can't be backed up without sources.

Again, where is your proof that the 330's decrease the service reliability for QF, or are you making the claim without any evidence to back it up?

 

[RAM]

Nothing you wrote above has anything to do with reliability which is what you were asked about. You made the sweeping statement infering low reliability on the A330's whereas reality reliability had nothing to do with age. But with the A330's it is one aircraft that Qantas is VERY happy with.

Also airlines factor in whole of life operating costs into their purchasing decisions. They would know full well the cost maintaining a mid life aircraft (which is what 12 years is). If you threw out anything just because it gets midlife and replace with the latest and greatest as you seem to suggest the whole of life costs would be higher due to shorter life. Also your real world comparisons whilst no doubting the info is for one airline. If the 777 was so perfect for every airline then every airline would be flying them. Airlines employ people to look at fleet, look at costs and make the right decisions for that airline.

Not quite - the Airbus media releases talk about increased reliability/operational status pointing out the improvements made with each generation has decreased maintenance cost and decreased non-operational time.

On your point about 'whole of life cost' - well Q gives JQ the early benefit of the early years low cost of life and then moves the plane to Q for the balancing high cost of life. You're right - overall is a balance, trouble is the scales have consistently been balanced against Q and in JQ's favour. What costs more to operate a new A330 or a 12 year old A330?

Sweeping generalisations do not serve any purpose other than to trivialise. How about looking at a like-for-like comparison - sounds fair.

Hmmm I wonder what the airlines flying the long haul into/out of Australia to Asia/Mid East/US are using mostly B747 or B777?

Air Canada - B777
Air China - B777
Air NZ - B777
Asiana Airlines - B777
British Airways - B777
Cathay Pacific - B777
China Airlines - B777
China Eastern Airlines - B777
China Southern Airlines - B777
Etihad -B777
Emirates - B777
Garuda - B777
Korean Air - B777
Qatar - B777
Royal Brunei - B777 (B787)
Singapore Airlines - B777
Scoot - B777
Thai - B777
United Airlines - B777

And of course;

Qantas B747

Well what do you know, every other competing airline is flying B777s over B747s on routes competing against Q out of/into Australia. Thanks for getting me to do the numbers.

I hit my 30 minute limit - please feel free to add other airlines I have not covered yet.

Yes you were correct - it does appear the B777 is PERFECT vs the B747 for virtually every other airline competing against Q AND they are flying them.

Qantas is the ugly duckling with this comparison.