Qantas orders new 787s and A350s

[jb747]

Thanks jb. I had thought CCQ pretty much covered the lot of them. I'm sure I had read somewhere at some point that LH tech crews could go from 340 to 320 (for example) but perhaps I misinterpreted that in terms of the actual training requirements were relatively minimal due to the common coughpits so it was a far easier transition from one to the other

Whilst the flight decks are similar, and the underlying assumptions of how things work are reasonably consistent across Airbus, the actual systems are completely different. Simple things, like having a feel for the actual dimensions of the aircraft and your position in it are absolutely essential to be able to land safely and consistently. So, I think you'll find that people like LH switched between the 330 and the 340 (and the 340 was essentially just a 330 with two additional engines anyway), but never the small jets and the big ones. Just think about the inertia differences, and how you manage them.

I am not an aviator or seafarer, so think in km or miles (and only miles because of the whole mileage game). And on AFF, many of us would have familiarity with miles, well because of their historical importance to points and miles earning. So the limit is more like 9200 miles instead of 9000 miles.

A nautical mile is equal to 1 minute of latitude.

The original definition of a kilometre also referenced the Earth, with it being equal to 1/10,000th of the distance from the equator to the pole.

 

[jb747]

Common type rating for 787-9 and 787-10? If so, that must surely generate cost savings for the operator?

It's basically the same aircraft...same as we flew the 767-200 and -300.

The 350 is apparently going to be approved by CASA as a co-endorsement with the 350. I actually have issues with that, as the coughpits/systems are generationally different, with the 350 being much more like a 380 with fewer engines.

The 220 is an oddball, being an Airbus in name only. I doubt that there would be co-endorsement with any of the 320 series.

No matter how much it's talked up, many people will only occasionally fly the other half of any co-endorsement, and that ongoing lack of familiarity will eventually bite.

 

[downtheback]

Current QF 787-9 is 42/28/166

United in their 787-10 are 44/21/253, but their J is quite dense and that config is not premium dense enough for QF. Based of SQ, 36 J fits within the same space of uniteds 44.

In a QF config, I could see the 787-10 seating 48/35/199 which is +6J, +7W and +33Y

A321XLR: Shorthaul, Low Demand or High Frequency (International Version w Flat Beds)
B787-9: Long and Thin routes, like MEL-DFW, PER-CDG etc
B787-10: High Demand Medium Haul like MEL-TYO/DEL, SYD-HNL, BNE-LAX etc
A350-1000: Premium Routes, A380 Replacement, MEL/SYD-LHR/JFK/LAX/SIN/HKG etc

A321XLR (Based off Jetblue LR): 24/12/96
And we know the A350-1000 will seat 6/52/40/140

 

[downtheback]

The original definition of a kilometre also referenced the Earth, with it being equal to 1/10,000th of the distance from the equator to the pole.

Until they realised they'd miscalculated it

 

[SYD]

Current QF 787-9 is 42/28/166

United in their 787-10 are 44/21/253, but their J is quite dense and that config is not premium dense enough for QF. Based of SQ, 36 J fits within the same space of uniteds 44.

In a QF config, I could see the 787-10 seating 48/35/199 which is +6J, +7W and +33Y

A321XLR: Shorthaul, Low Demand or High Frequency (International Version w Flat Beds)
B787-9: Long and Thin routes, like MEL-DFW, PER-CDG etc
B787-10: High Demand Medium Haul like MEL-TYO/DEL, SYD-HNL, BNE-LAX etc
A350-1000: Premium Routes, A380 Replacement, MEL/SYD-LHR/JFK/LAX/SIN/HKG etc

A321XLR (Based off Jetblue LR): 24/12/96
And we know the A350-1000 will seat 6/52/40/140

I was reading an article this morning that suggested Y+ isn’t a given - doesn’t necessarily work for the airline on short SYD/MEL-PER/AKL runs. Which would be a real shame if that comes at the expense of Y+ on medium haul Asia / HNL runs…..

 

[jb747]

Until they realised they'd miscalculated it

Yes, and it's not a symmetrical sphere, which was also part of the assumptions. It's an oblate spheroid, but not exactly the same north and south.

 

[elanshin]

A321XLR: Shorthaul, Low Demand or High Frequency (International Version w Flat Beds)
B787-9: Long and Thin routes, like MEL-DFW, PER-CDG etc
B787-10: High Demand Medium Haul like MEL-TYO/DEL, SYD-HNL, BNE-LAX etc
A350-1000: Premium Routes, A380 Replacement, MEL/SYD-LHR/JFK/LAX/SIN/HKG etc

I wonder if Qantas would go with 777X to potentially replace the 380s (assuming no new 380 program) instead of the 350-1000.

This would give them more capacity on the trunk heavy demand routes as but not service the sunrise routes.

 

[WilsonM]

I was reading an article this morning that suggested Y+ isn’t a given - doesn’t necessarily work for the airline on short SYD/MEL-PER/AKL runs. Which would be a real shame if that comes at the expense of Y+ on medium haul Asia / HNL runs…..

Wonder if instead QF would go with a MCE-style Economy Plus offering - couple of inches extra legroom would definitely get more takers even on domestic hops

 

[WilsonM]

Common type rating for 787-9 and 787-10? If so, that must surely generate cost savings for the operator?

FWIW, the A330 and A350 have a common type rating as well for Pilots, although pilots trained on an A330 have to do a small extra course. As the A350-900 is similar in size to the 787-10, I'm a little disappointed this seemingly isn't being considered from a customer's perspective (I assume the backlog and price were the two main factors). Of course, maintenance is another thing, but it would then have some commonality with the sunrise A35Xs

 

[NM]

Don't underestimate the possible benefits to QF in selecting a new aircraft type rather than more of something they already have. If they bring on a new type they may have the opportunity to establish new labour pools with new working/pay conditions that are "different" to those staff working the current fleet types. Its been done before.

 

[RichardMEL]

tbh the only real reason to get the 787-10 (apart from a probably VERY attractive pricing deal from a desperate vendor) is because the 789's are on the premesis and QF won't get rid of them (the oldest being 6 years old now - still babies) in the medium-long term. I personally reckon if they were 10 years older (I know the 787 didn't fly til 2012) then a replacement may well be more likely (wth expensive D checks and being more into the 2nd half of a expected lifespan) but they're still pretty new, and so all the infrastructure, pilot bases etc would make sense to add the -10 in for that reason.

I mean if the 789 was not with QF, then it would be a no brainer to transition to a full airbus fleet - 350/330neo/321XLR/32X/220 as discussed, but I think QF - should they actually buy the 787-10 - may see versatility in some markets between the two, and definitely for crews, maintenance and so on. Plus I think the added capacity ability is probably attractive for some of the missions it might go on (as unpopular as that probably is)

 

[downtheback]

I was reading an article this morning that suggested Y+ isn’t a given - doesn’t necessarily work for the airline on short SYD/MEL-PER/AKL runs. Which would be a real shame if that comes at the expense of Y+ on medium haul Asia / HNL runs…..

My gut feel is that SYD/MEL-PER/NZ will be a 50/50 ratio of Domestic A321s and International A321s for a mix of capacity and lie-flat seats. We may see those international A321s marketed as First/Business/Economy in order to minimise confusion between a Domestic A321 with Business Class recliner and an International A321 with a lie flat Business Class and (potentially) Premium Economy.

A bigger plane could make an appearance as part of an international leg (ie CDG-PER-MEL or MEL-AKL-JFK).

I wonder if Qantas would go with 777X to potentially replace the 380s (assuming no new 380 program) instead of the 350-1000.

This would give them more capacity on the trunk heavy demand routes as but not service the sunrise routes.

Potentially. I think they'll want to minimise it to just the two A/C types (hence B787-10 over the A330-900) but I wouldn't rule it completely out if they need all the seats they can get.

A B777-9 in F/J/W/Y could seat 6/60/42/192

The QF A350-1000 will seat 6/52/40/140 for comparison (0/+8/+2/+52)

 

[#flying]

FY23 investor presentation confirms 8 x 787-10 and 4 x 787-9 orders to be delivered from FY27.

 

[Harrison_133]

FY23 investor presentation confirms 8 x 787-10 and 4 x 787-9 orders to be delivered from FY27.

Also 12 additional A350-1000s.

 

[justinbrett]

Also 12 additional A350-1000s.

I think those are meant to replace the A380s

 

[Harrison_133]

I think those are meant to replace the A380s

Yeah they are. It also sounds like some of the newer A330s will stick around, although I won’t be surprised if they use some of the A321XLRs to bridge the gap.

 

[levelnine]

Does that graphic mean they are replacing 38 current aircraft with 24 new aircraft?!

Also, only Qantas could make a PR event of an order that is set to complete 14 years in the future LOL.

 

[jakeseven7]

Does that graphic mean they are replacing 38 current aircraft with 24 new aircraft?!

No, in the briefing notes some A330’s will be retained for a while yet, assuming the younger ones.

 

[justinbrett]

Does that graphic mean they are replacing 38 current aircraft with 24 new aircraft?!

Also, only Qantas could make a PR event of an order that is set to complete 14 years in the future LOL.

That doesn't include the current A350 order - so it's 24x A350s (12 of which the ULR variant), plus an extra 12 787s.

That's the way I read it anyway - It is in addition to the order for 12 specially modified A350s to operate Project Sunrise flights, arriving in FY26.

Kind of a dumb move to get them all at once, even if you could.

 

[SYD]

That doesn't include the current A350 order - so it's 24x A350s (12 of which the ULR variant), plus an extra 12 787s.

That's the way I read it anyway - It is in addition to the order for 12 specially modified A350s to operate Project Sunrise flights, arriving in FY26.

Kind of a dumb move to get them all at once, even if you could.

Yes, that’s how it’s being reported.

Qantas to buy 12 new Dreamliners and 12 A350s

The huge new deal will see next generation Boeing and Airbus aircraft replace its ageing fleet of A330s.

australianaviation.com.au