Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[kyle]

CL a little step above VA lounge.

Yes food and beverage in layman's terms but it's more than that.

Sure I get that it's a class above, but I still can't see the attraction. Maybe I'm not there yet or maybe I don't ever want to be there.

 

[Chicken]

So what's the next step? We write to our federal MPs

This is exactly what I did per my previous post (and feel free to recycle my e-mail then e-mail the minister).

I have actually received a response. In full below.

Dear [Chicken]

Thank you for your email of 15 August 2023 to the Hon Catherine King MP, Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, about the Australian Government's decision not to approve changes to current air service arrangements with Qatar. The Minister has asked me to reply on her behalf.

Australia has air services agreements with more than 100 countries facilitating international travel to and from Australia. We will be seeking bilateral negotiations with other key international priority markets over the next twelve months.

Under current arrangements, Qatar Airways is operating 42 services a week to Australia and can also operate unlimited direct passenger flights to many of Australia's international airports including Adelaide, Canberra, Cairns, Darwin and the Gold Coast along with unlimited dedicated freight services.

The Government has determined that agreeing to the Qatar Civil Aviation Authority request for additional services by updating the air services agreement is not in our national interest at this time. In determining the national interest, the Government considered a broad range of factors — not any single issue led to the decision.

The Government remains committed to supporting Australia's post COVID-19 economic recovery by encouraging the return of international tourism, business and trade and providing greater connectivity for Australian's travelling internationally.

It is expected that global international passenger traffic will return to pre-COVlD-19 levels over the next twelve months as airlines announce new flights and this additional demand will stimulate competition and encourage more competitive air fares on international routes.

Thank you for taking the time to write and I trust that this information will be of assistance.

[xxx]
A/g Assistant Secretary
International Aviation
August 2023

 

[kyle]

This is exactly what I did per my previous post (and feel free to recycle my e-mail then e-mail the minister).

I have actually received a response. In full below.

Dear [Chicken]

Thank you for your email of 15 August 2023 to the Hon Catherine King MP, Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, about the Australian Government's decision not to approve changes to current air service arrangements with Qatar. The Minister has asked me to reply on her behalf.

Australia has air services agreements with more than 100 countries facilitating international travel to and from Australia. We will be seeking bilateral negotiations with other key international priority markets over the next twelve months.

Under current arrangements, Qatar Airways is operating 42 services a week to Australia and can also operate unlimited direct passenger flights to many of Australia's international airports including Adelaide, Canberra, Cairns, Darwin and the Gold Coast along with unlimited dedicated freight services.

The Government has determined that agreeing to the Qatar Civil Aviation Authority request for additional services by updating the air services agreement is not in our national interest at this time. In determining the national interest, the Government considered a broad range of factors — not any single issue led to the decision.

The Government remains committed to supporting Australia's post COVID-19 economic recovery by encouraging the return of international tourism, business and trade and providing greater connectivity for Australian's travelling internationally.

It is expected that global international passenger traffic will return to pre-COVlD-19 levels over the next twelve months as airlines announce new flights and this additional demand will stimulate competition and encourage more competitive air fares on international routes.

Thank you for taking the time to write and I trust that this information will be of assistance.

[xxx]
A/g Assistant Secretary
International Aviation
August 2023

So I should tweak it to say, while I understand that a range of factors has been considered, I do not believe protecting the profitability of Qantas is a legitimate consideration as no other Australian company has such explicit profitability support from the Australian government.

 

[Chicken]

So I should tweak it to say, while I understand that a range of factors has been considered, I do not believe protecting the profitability of Qantas is a legitimate consideration as no other Australian company has such explicit profitability support from the Australian government.

Oh, yes, sure. Shots had already been fired from left right and centre, from Flight Centre to Canberra Airport to Sydney Airport to Singapore Air, so you cannot be accused as being a 'keyboard worrior on the internet'.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

One thing that's been on my mind the past couple of days hearing that Qantas lobbied the Commonwealth to prevent partner Qatar from expanding into the Australian market vis-a-vis more flights to hubs like Sydney was why they were so adamant about preventing such an expansion? Is Qatar part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)? Isn't Qantas also part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)? And so if they are both part of the same airline alliance isn't part of the agreement in being part of the cartel is to help each other out? Is not Alan Joyce obligated by OneWorld rules to lobby the government in favour of Qatar expansion? Shouldn't Qantas be expanding their relationship with airlines like Qatar through Joint Ventures and the like? If you look across the ocean to the Americas this is precisely what we're seeing with Air Canada, United and Lufthansa Group joint ventures. We don't hear any quibbles about new routes or expansions by these airlines.

Put simply, what am I missing in all of this?

-RooFlyer88

 

[Quickstatus]

what am I missing in all of this

QF and QR don't get along

"Best of friends, worst of enemies".......

 

[exceladdict]

Put simply, what am I missing in all of this?

-RooFlyer88

Qantas and Emirates to continue coordination on flights

The ACCC has granted authorisation for Qantas Airways Ltd, Emirates and their related entities (including Jetstar) to continue coordinating their passenger and cargo transport operations across their networks until 2028. These networks cover routes between Australia and the UK/Europe, New...

www.accc.gov.au

 

[trooper]

I think you are looking at the Oneworld alliance as being far more than it is... A "cartel"?

 

[RooFlyer]

Is Qatar part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)?

Yes. And QR CEO Akbar Al Baker is currently the Chairman of OneWorld.

Isn't Qantas also part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)?

Yes.

And so if they are both part of the same airline alliance isn't part of the agreement in being part of the cartel is to help each other out?

Not necessarily.

Is not Alan Joyce obligated by OneWorld rules to lobby the government in favour of Qatar expansion?

No. Nor is anyone else.

Shouldn't Qantas be expanding their relationship with airlines like Qatar through Joint Ventures and the like?

If you knew only 20% of the 'history' between QR, QF and their respective CEOs, you wouldn't need to ask that!!

I think you are looking at the Oneworld alliance as being far more than it is.

A loose confederation of warring parties.

 

[clifford]

CL a little step above VA lounge.

Yes food and beverage in layman's terms but it's more than that.

It's a little stuffy from what I remember of it, and not what I'm interested in, going forward.

Think 1940's...

 

[Himeno]

One thing that's been on my mind the past couple of days hearing that Qantas lobbied the Commonwealth to prevent partner Qatar from expanding into the Australian market vis-a-vis more flights to hubs like Sydney was why they were so adamant about preventing such an expansion? Is Qatar part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)? Isn't Qantas also part of OneWorld (I always thought it was)? And so if they are both part of the same airline alliance isn't part of the agreement in being part of the cartel is to help each other out? Is not Alan Joyce obligated by OneWorld rules to lobby the government in favour of Qatar expansion? Shouldn't Qantas be expanding their relationship with airlines like Qatar through Joint Ventures and the like? If you look across the ocean to the Americas this is precisely what we're seeing with Air Canada, United and Lufthansa Group joint ventures. We don't hear any quibbles about new routes or expansions by these airlines.

Put simply, what am I missing in all of this?

-RooFlyer88

There is nothing in the alliance agreements, for any of the major airline alliances (oneworld, Star Alliance or Sky Team) that requires member airlines to do anything more then the basic requirements of the alliance. Entering into joint ventures is not part of the basic requirements of any alliance.

QR, MH, BA and CX all have their problems with QF.
QR and BA have issues relating to the EK joint venture.
MH has issues relating to a failure merger negotiation (late 2008), and possibly something relating to the failed attempt by QF to start an Asian based premium carrier (RedQ).
CX was never happy about the attempt by QF to set up Jetstar Hong Kong (maybe if they had worked with CX to set up JQHK instead of a mainland Chinese carrier).

On the other hand, there are oneworld members that like QF. Such as AA and JL.
QF tried to get a joint venture with JL, but the ACCC wouldn't allow it.

 

[Chicken]

if they are both part of the same airline alliance isn't part of the agreement in being part of the cartel is to help each other out?

If you sell drugs in Sydney, and I sell drugs on the Central Coast, I think being an alliance means you keep your turf in Sydney, I keep my turf on the Central Coast. If your customers come to Central Coast, you recommend them to come to me, and vice versa. Maybe we work together to get a bigger discounts from the Mexicans.

I don't think helping each other out means you start sending your people up to the Coast, and have your people standing next to my people selling the same stuffs.

 

[SCM]

Is anyone interested to put a petition together to overturn the decision?

Also, isn't it possible to do something through the federal government websites, where they have to comment on a petition if it forces some count of signatures? Sure it will be meaningless, but it will send a message that people disapprove of their decision.

 

[MooTime]

Is anyone interested to put a petition together to overturn the decision?

Also, isn't it possible to do something through the federal government websites, where they have to comment on a petition if it forces some count of signatures? Sure it will be meaningless, but it will send a message that people disapprove of their decision.

Probably too political for AFF.

Wouldn't want to get your hands dirty with main aviation mob since this is predominantly an Australian Frequent Flyer related related website!

I see your point though, I think media and those in the business doing fine job of making their views documented.

 

[kookaburra75]

Is anyone interested to put a petition together to overturn the decision?

Also, isn't it possible to do something through the federal government websites, where they have to comment on a petition if it forces some count of signatures? Sure it will be meaningless, but it will send a message that people disapprove of their decision.

Probably too political for AFF.

Wouldn't want to get your hands dirty with main aviation mob since this is predominantly an Australian Frequent Flyer related related website!

I see your point though, I think media and those in the business doing fine job of making their views documented.

Agree on both points. From experience, to have the most impact go and see your local Federal MP or Senator and tell them what you think. The thing they hate the most is someone who votes them in or out, on their door step with a complaint. They will then lobby the relevant people in the party room/s.

 

[UP4014]

As an Australian, I'm happy for the Govt to protect Australian business against foreign competition. Especially foreign competition owned by foreign govts where the rule of law is somewhat grey.

 

[Must...Fly!]

As an Australian, I'm happy for the Govt to protect Australian business against foreign competition. Especially foreign competition owned by foreign govts where the rule of law is somewhat grey.

Dangerous, slippery slope.

 

[kyle]

As an Australian, I'm happy for the Govt to protect Australian business against foreign competition. Especially foreign competition owned by foreign govts where the rule of law is somewhat grey.

So even if the Australian businesses are uncompetitive, lacking in service and inefficient?

 

[UP4014]

So even if the Australian businesses are uncompetitive, lacking in service and inefficient?

From memory there are govt imposed rules around QF ownership which were put in place because ‘the people’ wanted it.

So yes.

 

[PineappleSkip]

Another new article in the Conversation, from an academic who teaches airline strategy in the context of bilateral air services agreements, makes that very point.

What will putting the interests of Qantas ahead of Qatar Airways cost? $1bn per year and a new wave of protectionism of legacy carriers

By denying Qatar this opportunity (and denying many Australians the opportunity to travel to Europe via Doha), Australia has shown it is prepared to be ungracious, and made it easier for other countries to treat it in the same fashion.

I’m sure the Chinese Government has noted this decision in the broader context of Australia’s efforts at reversing China’s anti Australian export decisions. The decision undercuts those efforts.

As an Australian, I'm happy for the Govt to protect Australian business against foreign competition.

Well you should be very unhappy with this decision.

I ran an Australian business supplying export services, which required me to travel a lot to where I supplied the services. My biggest single cost by far was airfares, which went through the roof during covid and are still around the ceiling. Not the biggest factor in my calling it quits, but I’m now happily retired.

In my game, the approach of the government has the effect of boosting competitors from abroad by increasing costs significantly and reducing the competitiveness of Australian bids for service export work relative to those of foreigners.

Cheers skip