Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[jrfsp]

Maybe it’s been covered but whats the justification for differentiation between UAE and Qatar rights

 

[justinbrett]

Maybe it’s been covered but whats the justification for differentiation between UAE and Qatar rights

Timing. Remember this is between governments, not airlines. I think the principle reason is UAE let Australia set up a military base in Al Minhad.

But also, both QF and VA flew their own metal to DXB & AUH respectively.

These treaties don't time expire, and whilst Australia could cancel the treaty now it has become one sided, there would be diplomatic fallout.

I very much doubt if the treaty went for approval today, without the military base, it would be approved.

 

[RooFlyer]

The government should have just said to Qantas - if you don't want Qatar to have more slots, then start Qantas flights to Doha from every Australian capital city.

Not from every city, but JAL going to fly to DOH.

Japan Airlines Launching Tokyo To Doha Flights In 2024

Japan Airlines will launch daily nonstop flights between Tokyo and Doha as of the summer of 2024 using Boeing 787s. Here are the details.

onemileatatime.com

 

[dajop]

Not from every city, but JAL going to fly to DOH.

Japan Airlines Launching Tokyo To Doha Flights In 2024

Japan Airlines will launch daily nonstop flights between Tokyo and Doha as of the summer of 2024 using Boeing 787s. Here are the details.

onemileatatime.com

Thanks to Russia?

 

[RooFlyer]

Thanks to Russia?

It would be cheeky if they began to co-ordinate connections with AY at DOH!!

 

[drron]

So under the Bilateral Air services agreement QR are allowed 28 flights per week into Australia. Obviously this agreement is for Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane as that totals 28 QR flights a week for QR. But they already have once daily flights into PER and ADL an extra 14 flights. Now in this episode they asked for an extra flight a day into BNE, SYD and MEL but also one into PER.
So my question is why can't they fly an extra service into PER? It seems it is outside the agreement.
Can they resurrect the DOH-SYD-CBR flight? Or Maybe a DOH -MEL - HBA flight? I know at least 1 AFFer who would patronise that flight.

And one strange one Maybe even DOH-BNE -WTB. Very few passengers but possibbly a good freight business from a centre of agriculture. Probably stupid but stupid things sometimes work out.

 

[antycbr]

So under the Bilateral Air services agreement QR are allowed 28 flights per week into Australia. Obviously this agreement is for Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane as that totals 28 QR flights a week for QR. But they already have once daily flights into PER and ADL an extra 14 flights. Now in this episode they asked for an extra flight a day into BNE, SYD and MEL but also one into PER.
So my question is why can't they fly an extra service into PER? It seems it is outside the agreement.
Can they resurrect the DOH-SYD-CBR flight? Or Maybe a DOH -MEL - HBA flight? I know at least 1 AFFer who would patronise that flight.

And one strange one Maybe even DOH-BNE -WTB. Very few passengers but possibbly a good freight business from a centre of agriculture. Probably stupid but stupid things sometimes work out.

My understanding is that flights that terminate in BNE/SYD/MEL/PER are covered by the cap.

Flights that are to any other international airport are effectively open skies with no cap.

A relatively unusual aspect of the Qatar agreement is restrictions on beyond flights passing thru the big four airports are also capped DOH-MEL-ADL or DOH-SYD-CBR can have 7 frequencies a week that go via one of the four capped airports, but unlimited anywhere else so could do 28 per week DOH to ADL/CNS/OOL/DRW if they felt like it but obviously it doesn’t make commercial sense.

If I recall this is not just a Aus-Qatar thing but applies to other countries as well, to encourage more service to regional airports.

Edited as I wasn’t aware of the beyond cap until I went and checked.

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/register_available_capacity_11july2023.pdf

 

[jrfsp]

So under the Bilateral Air services agreement QR are allowed 28 flights per week into Australia. Obviously this agreement is for Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane as that totals 28 QR flights a week for QR. But they already have once daily flights into PER and ADL an extra 14 flights. Now in this episode they asked for an extra flight a day into BNE, SYD and MEL but also one into PER.
So my question is why can't they fly an extra service into PER? It seems it is outside the agreement.
Can they resurrect the DOH-SYD-CBR flight? Or Maybe a DOH -MEL - HBA flight? I know at least 1 AFFer who would patronise that flight.

And one strange one Maybe even DOH-BNE -WTB. Very few passengers but possibbly a good freight business from a centre of agriculture. Probably stupid but stupid things sometimes work out.

PER is included in the agreement
Hence it was daily to SYD, MEL and PER prior to an extra 7 rightgranted during covid when they commenced BNE

 

[drron]

PER is included in the agreement
Hence it was daily to SYD, MEL and PER prior to an extra 7 rightgranted during covid when they commenced BNE

I just went by the press articles which said MEL had 2 services a day. checking the MEL website only 1. So another reason to never trust what you read in newspapers.

 

[jrfsp]

I just went by the press articles which said MEL had 2 services a day. checking the MEL website only 1. So another reason to never trust what you read in newspapers.

The second MEL flight is technically an ADL flight

 

[antycbr]

The second MEL flight is technically an ADL flight

Yes there’s a specific allowance for an additional 7 flights per week beyond the four capped airports (SYD/BNE/MEL/PER) to a regional (yes, ADL is regional in this context) airport, which is why the MEL-ADL tag exists (in reality, to serve Melbourne double daily but stay compliant with the agreement).

Nothing stopping QR serving DOH-ADL though other than commercial imperative.

 

[justinbrett]

I just went by the press articles which said MEL had 2 services a day. checking the MEL website only 1. So another reason to never trust what you read in newspapers.

The text from the treaty:
To/from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane or Perth:
28 frequencies in each direction per week with any aircraft type

In addition , a total of seven (7) frequencies per week with any aircraft type between Qatar and Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth provided such services operate via or beyond to a point in Australia other than Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth.

To/from any point in Australia other than Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth:
Unrestricted frequencies with any aircraft type.

 

[antycbr]

The text from the treaty:
To/from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane or Perth:
28 frequencies in each direction per week with any aircraft type

In addition , a total of seven (7) frequencies per week with any aircraft type between Qatar and Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth provided such services operate via or beyond to a point in Australia other than Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth.

To/from any point in Australia other than Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth:
Unrestricted frequencies with any aircraft type.

Will be interesting to see if WSI is considered “Sydney” or not and may in part have contributed to the rejection of this request. Some agreements include Avalon specifically and others don’t - most notably Indonesia includes AVV and is completely maxed out in terms of capacity.

 

[justinbrett]

Will be interesting to see if WSI is considered “Sydney” or not and may in part have contributed to the rejection of this request. Some agreements include Avalon specifically and others don’t.

I believe it specifically refers to YSSY/SYD as defined in other legislation as a major gateway airport.

I don't believe Melbourne includes YMAV/AVV.

I would say like Avalon it will be free reign for a good few years until it achieves critical mass - which will probably be decades when it comes to international widebodies.

 

[Himeno]

PER is included in the agreement
Hence it was daily to SYD, MEL and PER prior to an extra 7 rightgranted during covid when they commenced BNE

They had 21 weekly to the 4 limited ports prior to the pandemic. They were using the +7 via/to rights for SYD-CBR.
When the borders were closed, the limits in air service agreements were suspended and QR started BNE flights.
The agreement was updated to 28 flights shortly after the borders reopened and the limits returned, which allowed them to keep a daily BNE flight.

 

[Himeno]

If I recall this is not just a Aus-Qatar thing but applies to other countries as well, to encourage more service to regional airports.

Edited as I wasn’t aware of the beyond cap until I went and checked.

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/register_available_capacity_11july2023.pdf

The majority of agreements are either unlimited open skies (eg Japan, US, NZ) or capped (either flights per week or seats per week) to the 4 major ports with unlimited elsewhere. There are still a small number of agreements where all ports are under a cap.
Some include AVV under MEL, others don't.

Some of the caped agreements have an additional to/via allowance, others don't.

 

[Layslow]

Cause of the decision? I think very hard lobbying by Qantas had a very large influence in the decision not to allow QR further landing/capacity rights. If you agree with that, then good-o.



What do you mean by 'boutique services'? Comfortable journeys at a decent price, with excellent connections within Europe and elsewhere?

Yes, I think QR getting additional capacity to fly Australians to Europe would impact QF's services through to Europe. And I reckon Qantas does too.



The mat's already there - has been for a long time, including bringing Australians home during the pandemic, when the 'Spirit of Australia' abandoned them.



What rings true for me is that its an excellent flight product. Please don't moralise here. As @levelnine pointed out, if your 'moral compass' was consistent, the number of airlines available to you would shrink a lot. You know how far the death penalty extends age-wise in the USA? In any case, how are we off for Australia's treatment of certain classes of people? We've been condemned in the UN. How's the moral compass faring?

You fly the way you want and let us fly the way we want, within Australian law and regulations.

Comparing a government entity with a private one, like Qantas - and the expectation, though technically bankrupt during COVID they should have done the decent thing and kept operating - is just childish. Qantas is not a publicly owned carrier - its private and is answerable to its shareholders.... Also references to the death penalty in the US ring hollow - its only instigated when there are serious crimes - not because you are born that way (ie a woman and I won't even begin to chat about LGBTQ issues).... Also simple question - what does Qatar give Australia in reciprocal rights? Its a country of 2.5 million..... They give us nothing - but want access to our biggest population centres.... Do better guys.

 

[justinbrett]

either flights per week or seats per week

In the case of Thailand, the unit of measurement is B747s per week!

9.4 B747s a week. There's a table to convert to other aircraft types.

 

[antycbr]

In the case of Thailand, the unit of measurement is B747s per week!

9.4 B747s a week. There's a table to convert to other aircraft types.

Which size 747? 100? SP? 400? 800?

Sounds like a journalist wrote that air services agreement - where everything is either a jumbo or a Cessna.

 

[Himeno]

In the case of Thailand, the unit of measurement is B747s per week!

9.4 B747s a week. There's a table to convert to other aircraft types.

Mainland France is 3.0 "units" per week, where 1 unit is an aircraft with 400+ seats. A Qantas 787, with 236 seats, is 0.5 units.

The numbers listed in the IASC document doesn't count what is already assigned to Australian airlines. To see what the agreements allow a non Australian carrier, you need to add in what Australian airlines already have. Not a problem for the Qatar limit listed, but it is for the Thailand listed amount.

Post automatically merged: Jul 19, 2023

Which size 747? 100? SP? 400? 800?

Sounds like a journalist wrote that air services agreement - where everything is either a jumbo or a Cessna.

Aircraft substitution formula:
Aircraft type B747 equivalent
A380 1.50
B747-400 1.00
B747-300 1.00
B747-200 1.00
B747 Combi 1.00
B777 – 300 0.95
B787-900 0.95
B777-300 ER 0.90
B747SP 0.75
A340 0.70
A330 0.70
B787-800 0.70
B777-200 0.70
MD11 Standard 0.70
MD11-ER 0.65
DC10 0.65
B 767 – 300 (over 230 seats) 0.65
B 767 – 300 (230 seats or less) 0.60
A300-600 0.60
B767-200 0.50
A320 family (all versions) 0.45*
B737 family (all versions) 0.45*
* still to receive Thailand parliamentary approval