Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[dajop]

On the competition aspects, there is of course plenty of capacity for "Australian" carriers to fly to DOH, which is not currently being utilised. So if QR were interested, if shares in an Australian carrier were to come available on the market for some reason, they could acquire said shares and influence the strategy of the airline to fly to DOH and use that spare capacity, provided the airline had a corporate structure that meant the entity flying to DOH was on paper majority Australian owned.

 

[justinbrett]

That's the crux though many would prefer to fly QR instead of the aforementioned and of course QF. Why can't we be free to fly QR to the same degree? Well we know why despite all the "debate".. And while "agreements" open skies policy and application is not bilateral treaties. Infact they are treated differently hence, believe it or not, are called as such. You are right though, Australia has many restricted practices.

An Air Services Agreement is a treaty. They are mostly between two countries, making them bilateral treaties.

There are exceptions for certain trade blocks like the EU where it could be a more than bilateral (eg EU-US), but it's important to note that Australia has no such treaty with the EU, ours are all bilateral with individual countries.

I'm not sure why your making a big thing of the names, but you're definitely getting this wrong.

From the Australian Government:
Air services arrangements are usually comprised of a treaty level Air Services Agreement supplemented by arrangements of less than treaty status between aeronautical authorities, such as Memorandums of Understanding and/or exchanges of letters. It is Australian Government practice to publish all treaty-level agreements. However, arrangements of less than treaty status are generally not published as they are traditionally regarded as being confidential between aeronautical authorities.

 

[RooFlyer]

This decision and outcome from the Australian Government smacks of Anti-competitive behaviour.

Actually, judging from the reported remarks made a while ago from the Federal Transport Minister, it wasn't much to do with competition, treaties or agreements at all. From the Oz on line (ast line cut off is 'Qatar'.

 

[jakeseven7]

I think it’s important to understand what potato chips (PepsiCo owned or Green Foods) are served on all these flights and if th MNC’s involved unduly lobbied the Australian government to not expand the current agreement. I think 4 corners should investigate.

 

[justinbrett]

Actually, judging from the reported remarks made a while ago from the Federal Transport Minister, it wasn't much to do with competition, treaties or agreements at all. From the Oz on line (ast line cut off is 'Qatar'.

View attachment 336826

They increased from 21 to 28 after this incident, so not sure that's the full story.

The world of foreign affairs is complex with many layers. We'll never know the full reason why it was denied - could be leverage for something we want in the future, could be wanting to keep their nemesis UAE onside, could be punishment for stories like above, could be as simple as "there's nothing in it for Australia".

I'd say the fact it only went up last year probably counted against it. I think next time when it's up for review, if VA flies its own metal to DOH, it's much more likely to be expanded.

Consumer wishes are, unfortunately for some, just a part of the equation. If that was the only metric, we wouldn't have any import tariffs and our markets would be flooded with cheap imports. Australia does seek out FTAs with countries where it is of mutual benefit. Even FTAs usually have carve outs to protect certain industries.

 

[Beasley]

As an active accumulator/user of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program I am quite pleased that Qatar have been blocked from increasing flights in Australia. Qatar have blatantly discriminated against QFF'ers by severely restricting us from redeeming flights on their airline ...... so why should Australia help Qatar Airlines!

 

[RooFlyer]

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if VA flies its own metal to DOH, it's much more likely to be expanded.

if VA wet-leased QR birds and flew then too Qatar, as I suggested up thread, would that count as an Australian airline flying to Qatar or count as QR itself?

 

[justinbrett]

if VA wet-leased QR birds and flew then too Qatar, as I suggested up thread, would that count as an Australian airline flying to Qatar or count as QR itself?

Yep- it would count as an Australian airline.

Just would be quite a tap dance to get it under the VAi umbrella.

 

[RooFlyer]

so why should Australia help Qatar Airlines!

Because we Australians want them to ( in this case)? Should the Australian government really take notice of commercial squabbles between competing Airlines?

 

[dajop]

if VA wet-leased QR birds and flew then too Qatar, as I suggested up thread, would that count as an Australian airline flying to Qatar or count as QR itself?

What would happen if QF wet-leased some of AY's birds and flew from Sydney to Singapore? Would that count as an Australian airline flying to Singapore, or would that count as AY itself?

 

[RooFlyer]

Yep- it would count as an Australian airline.

Just would be quite a tap dance to get it under the VAi umbrella.

They could probably count on some assistance to get there .

What would be the issues you allude to?

 

[justinbrett]

What would happen if QF wet-leased some of AY's birds and flew from Sydney to Singapore? Would that count as an Australian airline flying to Singapore, or would that count as AY itself?

It counts as QF.

 

[Pushka]

As an active accumulator/user of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program I am quite pleased that Qatar have been blocked from increasing flights in Australia. Qatar have blatantly discriminated against QFF'ers by severely restricting us from redeeming flights on their airline ...... so why should Australia help Qatar Airlines!

How on earth is this relevant to this agreement? Australia the nation has no involvement with QFF awards.

 

[dajop]

It counts as QF.

Yes exactly. Ergo that VA wet-leasing a QR plane would count as VA (subject to paper shuffle for VAi).

 

[justinbrett]

They could probably count on some assistance to get there .

What would be the issues you allude to?

The VAi>VA group arrangement is already shaky (refer SMH article below), if it's complicated by a foreign state owned airline "donating" its aircraft to bypass foreign ownership restrictions, that could well lead to federal government intervention and the whole house of cards, including VA group> VAi, to come down.

I don't think VA want to make waves in this area.

Yes exactly. Ergo that VA wet-leasing a QR plane would count as VA (subject to paper shuffle for VAi).

Well, it's a money shuffle, not a paper shuffle. That's the problem. Much easier to do magic tricks within the group, much harder when it's a foreign airline, as VAi would have to pay for the aircraft lease, not VA group.

Not to say it can't be done, but it would be quite the tap dance. As above, there's already eyes on the arrangement, probably don't want to exploit it any more than they have to.

Might be better to do it with a different lease, as it would be quite obvious what's going on if there is QR tails.

Virgin to use shell company loophole to sidestep foreign ownership cap

Virgin Australia might be firmly in the hands of US private equity firm Bain Capital, but its long-suffering Australian investors have not walked away as empty handed as previously believed.

www.smh.com.au

 

[siri]

Some of the comments here are mind boggling .. Since Aus is in cough end of the world, we need more transit points if you are flying west, towards Europe and flying towards east got few transit points but well catered for if you going to US or Europe.
Qantas has shown its colours when the chips are down and Qantas MO is corrupting pollies from both major parties.
Australian govt. should cater for the people here and Qantas use of chairman lounge should now be referred to federal corruption body.

 

[docjames]

The capacities (at least for the agreements I've seen) apply to both Australian and Foreign airlines.

Ie, for Qatar, QR can fly 28 services per week, and QF/VA can fly another 28 services per week.

The foreign available and used capacity is in a separate document - https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/s...gn-airlines-northern-summer2023-april2023.pdf.

I think this is an interesting point - if QR and QF could play nicely, there would be a similar opportunity that there was with EK for onward carriage - QF metal operating to DOH and carrying QR code.

The opportunity would also therefore be for QR to come up with a partnership with VA that made sense for both sides (QR metal wet leased to VA……).

Both of these seem unlikely, but with 28 per week used by QR and NOT the 28 used by the Australian carriers, it’s certainly going to be a push to increase QR allocation.

The other option would be for QR to push for extending of rights to “non-main” centres (ie. not SYD/MEL/BNE/PER) - and tie up QF/VA for “seamless” onward connections. DRW anyone?

 

[Spamam]

If QANTAS had a serious fleet expansion plan, not a contraction in capacity, I would have a bit of sympathy. This will lead to further price gouging, restrictions in tourism and further allow QANTAS service to deteriorate without consequences. 12 A350s to replace to loss of 747s and 2 A380s is nowhere near enough. Hopefully the European airlines will start ultra long hall routes here.

 

[RooFlyer]

The VAi>VA group arrangement is already shaky (refer SMH article below),

Interesting article, thanks. An angle worth keeping an eye on

 

[Melburnian1]

Australian govt. should cater for the people here and Qantas use of chairman lounge should now be referred to federal corruption body.

This is the crux and an opinion I've similarly held for many years.

Whether it's lobbying against high speed rail on Oz's east coast, to restrict QR, keep unused landing times/places at crowded SYD or giving Federal (and State) politicians constant privileged access, QF is acting against our national interest.