QF9 / QF10 Perth

[RichardMEL]

I doubt there is the premium demand into AMS for QF. FRA.. perhaps-makes more sense as a financial hub and destination, but it is deep into enemy territory with poor feed. HEL? Despite AY.. seems far too north for QF and, well, out of the way (sorry Finns!). I could see AMS ahead of HEL tbh.

 

[jb747]

I can't see QF flying into AMS. FRA direct maybe (as it used to operate a 747 there). The long thin routes 787/A350 require a high business passenger component.

HEL would be a better option in my view than AMS.

The list of places QF used to go is more extensive than where they currently go. Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, Manchester, Athens, Rome (or do they go there again?), Belgrade, come to mind, and that’s just in Europe. The upshot is that they don’t actually want to go anywhere. One aircraft going to one place is nirvana to some in management.

 

[RSVKanga]

The list of places QF used to go is more extensive than where they currently go. Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, Manchester, Athens, Rome (or do they go there again?), Belgrade, come to mind, and that’s just in Europe. The upshot is that they don’t actually want to go anywhere.

The upshot is that there is now too many foreign carriers bringing in their oversaturated capacity dumping into Australia. The good part is that their peak has passed and more Australians will return to QF when they fly to Europe nonstop, potentially reinstating FRA and AMS in addition to existing LHR, CDG and FCO flights. It’s a matter of when not if. The naysayers who predicted that PER-LHR would easily be defeated by ME airlines were demolished when it was revealed to be QF’s most profitable route in their history. The same will happen to SYD-Europe nonstop and those destinations you mentioned could and should come back soon, and it’s the beginning of the end for ME carriers’ stronghold on the Aus-Europe market.

 

[jase05]

The upshot is that there is now too many foreign carriers bringing in their oversaturated capacity dumping into Australia. The good part is that their peak has passed and more Australians will return to QF when they fly to Europe nonstop, potentially reinstating FRA and AMS in addition to existing LHR, CDG and FCO flights. It’s a matter of when not if. The naysayers who predicted that PER-LHR would easily be defeated by ME airlines were demolished when it was revealed to be QF’s most profitable route in their history. The same will happen to SYD-Europe nonstop and those destinations you mentioned could and should come back soon, and it’s the beginning of the end for ME carriers’ stronghold on the Aus-Europe market.

Just because it’s profitable doesn’t say much with the price QF gouges for it.
ME airlines aren’t going away anytime soon and the bulk of Australians flying to Europe will still not be travelling on QF.
From a personal POV even if QF was the same price or even cheaper I’d probably choose an alternate airline but that’s just personal choice as I have no real need or desire to sit on an aircraft for that length of time even in J but each to their own

 

[Himeno]

When Sunrise services commence, it’s not out of the question for QF to fly A350s and 787s into CDG and AMS, and utilise AF/KLM codeshare connections instead of BA. Apart from BA being partly owned by QF’s enemy, AF/KLM offer an arguably better short haul experience, and there is already an existing QF-AF/KLM partnership that can be expanded - not something totally new. Also will mean CDG and AMS will become key QF metal ports alongside LHR which will be treated as a destination rather than transit.

The air service agreements might not provide enough capacity for Qantas to be able to fly to a mainland EU hub and transfer pax to a local partner.
The current agreements allow Australian airlines the following:
Finland - 2800 seats/week
France (mainland) - 3.0 "units" (an aircraft with under 239 seats is 0.5 units) QF currently has 2 units for their upcoming PER-CDG flights
Germany - 25 flights/week
Netherlands - 2800 seats/week
UK - unlimited

 

[Cognac]

Given that their seat count has just about halved over the years it appears to be so. It is interesting though that the airline spins the QF9/10 as a high yielding route but it has now cut the East Coast to LHR routes by half.

I'm not sure what the point is here. Qantas have sold fewer seats to the UK over recent years than in previous years? There is increased competition these days, and Qantas needs a point of differentiation from other vendors. Being the Australian Airline is obviously not enough, and so they've cut back. They're hoping to recapture some of those seats with project sunrise.

But their core business is not flying people from Australia to the UK, as much as many here believe that it should be. The UK is one of the top 5 destinations for Australian travellers, but if Qantas only focused on that for international travel at the expense of Japan, Indonesia, New Zealand, and other more local options, or even the US, they'd be a poorer airline for it and an even more niche operator than they already are on the goal stage.

Some would say that East coast via "Australia" (PER) to LHR is similar.

So don't take that flight? Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but Qantas doesn't seem to think PER-LHR is a bad idea at the moment. Sorry if that's inconvenient for you.

Maybe it'll change in the future, I don't have a crystal ball. But if it makes fiscal sense for them to drop the Melbourne leg and instead run it direct from Perth then what's the issue? If using the F lounge in Melbourne is so important on your flights to the UK then vote with your wallet and either fly via Singapore or select another carrier that gives you that option.

While Paul Keating might say we are actually part of Asia, AU still has a significant connection with UK.

Geographically, and financially, we are absolutely part of Asia. It makes perfect sense to me that Qantas has more routes to Singapore, Japan, and New Zealand than it does to the UK.

Our sentimental connection to the UK is what keeps QF1/2 and 9/10 alive, and makes projects like Sunrise feasible. But it's not the only consideration they have when deploying the fleet.

 

[RSVKanga]

The naysayers who predicted that PER-LHR would easily be defeated by ME airlines were demolished when it was revealed to be QF’s most profitable route in their history.

Also, it’s important to note that PER-LHR was so successful that it significantly contributed to EY axing their PER-AUH flights after nonstop LHR commenced. So QF nonstop to Europe is the future and ME airlines’ stronghold is in slow decline.

What’s there to suggest that the same won’t happen to SYD/MEL/BNE when they get Sunrise flights?

 

[RSVKanga]

The air service agreements might not provide enough capacity for Qantas to be able to fly to a mainland EU hub and transfer pax to a local partner.
The current agreements allow Australian airlines the following:
Finland - 2800 seats/week
France (mainland) - 3.0 "units" (an aircraft with under 239 seats is 0.5 units) QF currently has 2 units for their upcoming PER-CDG flights
Germany - 25 flights/week
Netherlands - 2800 seats/week
UK - unlimited

And yet according to the media narrative Australia somehow must keep giving free capacity to countries like Qatar while the EU remains stubborn on giving Australia its fair share of flight rights

 

[SeaWolf]

And yet according to the media narrative Australia somehow must keep giving free capacity to countries like Qatar while the EU remains stubborn on giving Australia its fair share of flight rights

An airline in Qatar is ready and able to operate additional flights between Australia and Qatar, over the existing cap, right now, and is requesting to do so. No airline in Australia is ready, able and requesting to operate additional flights between Australia and those EU countries at the moment.

Perhaps at some point in the future one will be able, ready and requesting. Or perhaps not.

 

[RSVKanga]

No airline in Australia is ready, able and requesting to operate additional flights between Australia and those EU countries at the moment

Absolute nonsense. Qantas is ready.

Have you not heard of QF33 and 34?

Have you not heard about how PER-FCO is so profitable but QF can't fly year round there?

 

[Daver6]

Given that their seat count has just about halved over the years it appears to be so. It is interesting though that the airline spins the QF9/10 as a high yielding route but it has now cut the East Coast to LHR routes by half.

Axing QF9 from MEL to PER and funnelling pax via domestic routes doesn't mean eat coast to LHR is halved again. You're just on different aircraft and flight number. You're just upset that it's via a domestic flight first. It really isn't the end of the world.

 

[downgraded]

The upshot is that there is now too many foreign carriers bringing in their oversaturated capacity dumping into Australia. The good part is that their peak has passed and more Australians will return to QF when they fly to Europe nonstop, potentially reinstating FRA and AMS in addition to existing LHR, CDG and FCO flights. It’s a matter of when not if. The naysayers who predicted that PER-LHR would easily be defeated by ME airlines were demolished when it was revealed to be QF’s most profitable route in their history. The same will happen to SYD-Europe nonstop and those destinations you mentioned could and should come back soon, and it’s the beginning of the end for ME carriers’ stronghold on the Aus-Europe market.

I'm assuming you're a QF shareholder.

As noted QF has halved it's seats to the UK, that's not an airline looking to serve the market but one looking to maximise its profits and the rest of the Australian customer-base be damned.

Point to point (sunrise) is a niche, high yielding opportunity in the broader traveller landscape. Most Australians (and visitors) will be happy with the cheaper and more eco friendly hub and spoke ME/Asia model that provides the greater capacity, flexibility, and perhaps more importantly, reliability, over the P2P sunrise approach.

 

[SeaWolf]

Have you not heard of QF33 and 34?

Those are already operating within the existing caps. Qantas is not requesting additional capacity.

Have you not heard about how PER-FCO is so profitable but QF can't fly year round there?

There's no seasonal restriction on the capacity between Australia and Italy. There's additional capacity of 4 flights per week available that is not presently being used.

 

[downgraded]

Axing QF9 from MEL to PER and funnelling pax via domestic routes doesn't mean eat coast to LHR is halved again. You're just on different aircraft and flight number. You're just upset that it's via a domestic flight first. It really isn't the end of the world.

No, you're not just on different aircraft and flight numbers. You're on a narrow body domestic service rather than a wide body international service. The difference should be chalk and cheese, though perhaps not when on QF.

 

[RSVKanga]

Most Australians (and visitors) will be happy with the cheaper and more eco friendly hub and spoke ME/Asia model that provides the greater capacity, flexibility, and perhaps more importantly, reliability, over the P2P sunrise approach.

Get real, just like how 90% of travellers between Australia and North America don't stop in AKL/HNL anymore and fly nonstop instead because of improved technology, at least 50% of travellers between Australia and Europe will prefer nonstop when improved technology takes flight. It may be in 2035. It may be in 2040. 2045. But it's a matter of when, not if.

 

[jase05]

Point to point (sunrise) is a niche, high yielding opportunity in the broader traveller landscape. Most Australians (and visitors) will be happy with the cheaper and more eco friendly hub and spoke ME/Asia model that provides the greater capacity, flexibility, and perhaps more importantly, reliability, over the P2P sunrise approach.

This is very true. Everyone has different needs and wants and Sunrise will be perfect for many people who want P2P but for those who want one of the many other Euro destinations then Sunrise is still going to need a connection in Europe and of you don’t live in one of the big 3 or big 4 Australian cities you are going to need a domestic connection too so you suddenly have a 2 stop flight. I don’t know about everyone but if prices are comparable and in my case I want to go ADL-MAD for instance my options on QF would be ADL-MEL/SYD/PER in garbage J then pick up Sunrise flight to a Euro port and then transit through said Euro port to pick up Euro J or I just take QR ADL-DOH in QSuites have a day or two in marvellous Doha and then pick up another good J product to Madrid. I think the choice is pretty easy for me

Post automatically merged: May 29, 2024

Get real, just like how 90% of travellers between Australia and North America don't stop in AKL/HNL anymore and fly nonstop instead because of improved technology, at least 50% of travellers between Australia and Europe will prefer nonstop when improved technology takes flight. It may be in 2035. It may be in 2040. 2045. But it's a matter of when, not if.

But it’s only going to be non stop from a few cities to a few cities. The rest of us will still require multiple stops

 

[downgraded]

Get real, just like how 90% of travellers between Australia and North America don't stop in AKL/HNL anymore and fly nonstop instead because of improved technology, at least 50% of travellers between Australia and Europe will prefer nonstop when improved technology takes flight. It may be in 2035. It may be in 2040. 2045. But it's a matter of when, not if.

Don't disagree they they may prefer it, but not sure they'll pay a premium to save a couple of hours. If the technology makes the non stop option cheaper then sure the market will vote with its wallet but QFs current proposition is that people will pay a premium to get there 3-4 hours quicker. A price sensitive world where high(er) volume lead to CHEAPER fares was the driver for the huge take up in international travel. The P2P model is still based on premium pricing - just look at Europe to the US or even intra-US - hub and spoke still drives the mass market with P2P being the lower volume premium niche.

 

[RSVKanga]

This is very true. Everyone has different needs and wants and Sunrise will be perfect for many people who want P2P but for those who want one of the many other Euro destinations then Sunrise is still going to need a connection in Europe and of you don’t live in one of the big 3 or big 4 Australian cities you are going to need a domestic connection too so you suddenly have a 2 stop flight. I don’t know about everyone but if prices are comparable and in my case I want to go ADL-MAD for instance my options on QF would be ADL-MEL/SYD/PER in garbage J then pick up Sunrise flight to a Euro port and then transit through said Euro port to pick up Euro J or I just take QR ADL-DOH in QSuites have a day or two in marvellous Doha and then pick up another good J product to Madrid. I think the choice is pretty easy for me

Post automatically merged: May 29, 2024

But it’s only going to be non stop from a few cities to a few cities. The rest of us will still require multiple stops

Look, I think there's no secret that Project Sunrise isn't a magical unicorn that will somehow help ADL. Adelaide joins Canberra, Darwin, Hobart and Cairns as being minor international ports, and that's just the reality. The majority of tourists/business travellers coming to Australia, and the majority of QF's international customer base go to/are located in SYD, MEL, BNE and PER. That's just the reality.

Even in the eyes of ME airlines, Adelaide isn't major. I'm sorry to break it to you. If ADL was so important, why did it take EK half a decade to resume flights into ADL? Covid hit in 2020 and EK only resumes in almost 2025.

 

[jase05]

Look, I think there's no secret that Project Sunrise isn't a magical unicorn that will somehow help ADL. Adelaide joins Canberra, Darwin, Hobart and Cairns as being minor international ports, and that's just the reality. The majority of tourists coming to Australia, and the majority of QF's international customer base go to/are located in SYD, MEL, BNE and PER. That's just the reality.

Agree to that but even at the other end there is so many other ports in Europe that QF can’t and won’t serve. Even if I lived in Sydney or Melbourne it’s all well and good getting a nonstop flight to Paris, London or Rome but after 20hrs of flying the last thing I want to do is transit through there, wait for another hour or so and then jump on a Euro J connecter for 2-3hrs when I can just break the trip in half and have a wide body in comfort all the way. Sunrise will be perfect for those who want P2P but the price will reflect it unfortunately

 

[justinbrett]

It's an outrage QF doesn't offer more services to Europe, particularly with the number of European carriers serving Australia.