Reduction in Transfer Rates to Velocity/Krisflyer

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Mike,

Probably not relevant as it's velocity's definition. Need to go for an industry standard or legal definition..

Luckily there's a legal determination made by the ATO on air miles, frequent flyer points...

[h=2]GSTR 2012/1[/h]Their definition is as follows:
" 'loyalty points' is a reference to any record keeping mechanism (usually, but not necessarily, called points) which is used to ascertain the member's eligibility for rewards. However, it does not include rights to goods or services in the form of vouchers within the meaning of section 100-25; and"

Banks would go to great lengths to keep the provision of points as a GST free supply. If they are to categorise them (Krisflyer points) as goods and services - paragraph 3 of the clause 6.2 then this would be of great interest to the ATO. :)
 
This is outrageous and why we hate Citi. Deception of the first order.
Great article today in Point Hacks - Citibank cut Citi Rewards transfer rates to Velocity and KrisFlyer with no notice to existing customers - Point Hacks
We should all do exactly as suggested in the posting in this article....IW ill be.

Velocity and KrisFlyer with no notice to existing customers November 3, 2015

The Citi Rewards program has long been a favourite of points collectors looking for an alternative rewards program that’s not linked to an American Express.
The transfer rates from Citi Rewards were just cut – down from 1 Citi Reward to 0.666 KrisFlyer or Velocity miles, to 1 Citi Reward to 0.5 airline miles. This is for both the $700 pa Citi Prestige VIsa and the Citi Signature – almost a 25% cut in value.
What’s worse is that this was done on November 1st, and existing cardholders were given no notice. This, to be honest, is a pretty appalling way to run a rewards program.
[h=2]Old vs new earn rates for the Citi Signature and Prestige Visas[/h]I’ve summarised the differences in the previous transfer and therefore earn rates for the two key cards and the new below.
[TABLE="class: tablepress tablepress-id-126"]
[TR="class: row-1"]
[TH="class: column-1"] [/TH]
[TH="class: column-2"]Old [/TH]
[TH="class: column-3"]New[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-2"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Citi Rewards Transfer Rate[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]1 Citi = 0.66 Velocity / KrisFlyer[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1 Citi = 0.5 Velocity / KrisFlyer[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-3"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Citi Prestige earn rate / domestic[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]1.33 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-4"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Citi Prestige earn rate / international[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]3.33 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $AUD[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2.5 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $AUD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-5"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Citi Signature earn rate / domestic[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]1 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]0.75 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-6"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Citi Signature earn rate / international[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]2.65 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $AUD[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2 Velocity / KrisFlyer per $AUD[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It’s not a pretty sight for either set of cardholders.
The Citi Prestige Visa has a $700 annual fee, so for this to go to a 1 point per $ earn card for two of the major airline currencies on the market, when there are higher earning cards out there, is not good.
For Citi Signature cardholders this means that their effective earn rates on spend have been cut from a relatively market leading position.
I reached out to Citibank who provided this official comment on these changes:
Any changes made are always in line with the rewards terms and conditions. We believe our rewards program continues to provide excellent value for our customers. We continually review our rewards program to ensure it provides value for all of our customers. We have recently conducted one of these reviews in light of recent external market changes and the impacts on our Rewards Program.
[h=2]What can you do about this?[/h]Firstly, if you are interested in whether this is above board, the Citi Rewards terms are here.
Term 6.2 is the key one:
6.2 We may vary these Rewards Program Terms and Conditions from time to time. We will notify you of a change in the following ways:
* If we change the rate at which all Points in the program are generally earned or converted we will give you 90 days written notice of that change;
* We will give you 30 days written notice of other changes to these Rewards Program Terms and Conditions;
* If we change the Point value of individual goods or services in the program to reflect changes in the price charged by our suppliers for those goods or services, or if a particular Reward is unavailable we will notify you on our rewards website at the time you redeem your Reward.
I don’t know if Citi are within the terms of their program to make a change with no notice if they claim that the price charged by KrisFlyer or Velocity has increased.
I don’t believe that a points transfer is a ‘good or service’, but wouldn’t be surprised if that term is leant on to disclaim the lack of notice.
I am no lawyer, so if you have a specific reading of the terms, I’d love to hear it in the comments.
So, firstly, contact Citi and express your displeasure. Ask for discounts on your annual fee and/or bonus points as compensation. If you don’t get a satisfactory outcome, maybe it could be worth asking the Financial Ombudsman to get involved.
If you are willing to share any successes, again, please do so in the comments.
[h=3]How it should have been done?[/h]I don’t think making changes to a rewards program is a problem. Businesses and contexts change all the time, and as consumers we need to be prepared for that.
However banks and rewards programs need to recognise that member engagement is only possible if there is consumer trust in the program. Trust needs to be engendered by providing clear notice of changes, in writing, allowing the consumer to take action based on the change.
Regardless of Citi being in the right or wrong according to the letter of their terms, they will have screwed many consumers by reducing the value of their hard-earned points balances, without offering the ability to do anything about it.
[h=2]What are the non-Citi Visa options for Velocity earn?[/h]For heavy non Amex users, this leaves few Velocity-linked cards that earn 1 point per $.
The Virgin Money Visas lead the pack at 1 Velocity points per $ on the Flyer Visa, and 1.25 points per $ on the High Flyer Visa.
The Virgin Money cards are also issued by Citibank – but are managed by an independent business to Citi. My understanding that points earn rates, bonuses and other key product features are managed by Virgin Money, not Citibank, but I suppose there’s also a small risk of product changes there.
[h=2]Summing up[/h]I’ll also change the Point Hacks card guides to Citi Rewards, and the Citi Signature and Citi Prestige Visas in the next day – unfortunately I’m travelling most of today but will try and get this done ASAP.
Finally, I’ve also tried to confirm with Virgin Money that the Flyer Visas remain unaffected for the foreseeable future. Again, I’ll add any comment I can on that to this post.
Thanks to a Point Hacks commenter for the heads up, and AFF for links to terms and their opinions.
 
Rang 1800 818 008 for signature card and the lady advised me yes they have changed the conversion..same story as others here. Advising nothing they can do etc etc .

I pushed harder and she offered me 2000 CITI points as compensation for the change. She says they did advise by email ?? I advised her 2000 CITI is not worth anything and this change has cost me +/- 25000 VA points.

She says a manager will call back within 48 hours..
 
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Has any AFF member seen any official statement released byCiti after all the complaints they have received?
 
Has any AFF member seen any official statement released byCiti after all the complaints they have received?

I suspect it will all depend on the quantum of complaints.. If enough people raise the issue by email / phone then hopefully they will get sick of answering complaints all day and offer some sort of solution as goodwill... Citi are not known for swift action.

We can only hope...:)
 
Has any AFF member seen any official statement released byCiti after all the complaints they have received?

Nope. David Flynn from Ausbt promised to publish an article on this. He hasn't yet, I think he might be waiting for a response from Citi.

Keith from Pointhacks did get a response. But it's bullock like "we at Citibank always strive the best for our customers and we undergo constant reviews in our reward program to ensure our customers get the best....blah blah blah". Basically the same political statement from any politician.
 
I have just had my first cal to Citi re this matter - spoke to an agent and explained to her - her immediate response was that Citi only need to give notice if 'material change to way that ALL rewards points are earned'. I then quoted her 6.2 and about conversion in particular and that she was clearly misrepresenting the facts.

Asked to be transferred to manager / supervisor and I got onto Albert who is an Escalations Officer. I again clearly read 6.2 to Albert and explained whilst no change to earn rate there is a 'material change to conversion rate' and therefore they are required to give 90 days notice.

Albert will review this matter and has promised to call me back later in the day. I wait with baited breath!
 
I suspect it will all depend on the quantum of complaints.. If enough people raise the issue by email / phone then hopefully they will get sick of answering complaints all day and offer some sort of solution as goodwill... Citi are not known for swift action.

We can only hope...:)

It all depends how big a proportion we point chasers make in their total number of customers. I suspect many card holder out there are only interested in toasters and gift cards so they probably don't even notice the change.

We have been complaining about lifemile's IT glitch for about a year now. Even their customer service have notice the "unusual excess amount" of requests coming in. But LM seem to be happy to stay that way and even encourage customers to keep on requesting.
 
Albert will review this matter and has promised to call me back later in the day. I wait with baited breath!

If you don't get a positive resolution Cruiser, I guess none of us will :(

The best outcome I see from all of our collective efforts is Citibank reversing these conversion changes, giving us the required 90 days notice, and then the new (bad conversion) rates start say 1 March 2016.
 
I have just had my first cal to Citi re this matter - spoke to an agent and explained to her - her immediate response was that Citi only need to give notice if 'material change to way that ALL rewards points are earned'. I then quoted her 6.2 and about conversion in particular and that she was clearly misrepresenting the facts.

Asked to be transferred to manager / supervisor and I got onto Albert who is an Escalations Officer. I again clearly read 6.2 to Albert and explained whilst no change to earn rate there is a 'material change to conversion rate' and therefore they are required to give 90 days notice.

Albert will review this matter and has promised to call me back later in the day. I wait with baited breath!

We have faith in you CE!

I must be in the que to call as haven't received my promised call yet from Citibank!
 
I rang up and they said they wanted to meet me half way with the situation. Offered 20000 points but I wanted either 60000 (enough to make up for change) or halving of annual fee.

She gave me her employee ID and promised to ring back today
 
The best outcome I see from all of our collective efforts is Citibank reversing these conversion changes, giving us the required 90 days notice, and then the new (bad conversion) rates start say 1 March 2016.
Yes I agree 100% - I think that is best result any of us can hope for.
 
I'm interested in this speculation/discussion around point 3 of 6.2, have Citibank actually said to anyone this is the reason? While Citibank is known for its variable responses, the below are what I believe has been said to various people
- Clause 3.6 allows us to change without notice (i.e. ignoring 6.2)
- we can change at any time (no reference to any T&C)
- we always keep to out T&C's (without addressing 6.2)
- 6.2 only requires us to notify of material change to our earn rate, ignoring the change to conversion rate and suggesting there is a materiality factor in Clause 6.2

Any other lines being used here? It would be good to get a clear group view of what Citi are actually telling people, particularly if we think they are being inconsistent and/or ignoring some specific clauses in the T&C's.
 
The best outcome I see from all of our collective efforts is Citibank reversing these conversion changes, giving us the required 90 days notice, and then the new (bad conversion) rates start say 1 March 2016.

+1 - ultimately Citi has every right to modify their rewards program in any way they want, what they cannot do is to go against their own T&Cs and get away without providing 90 days notice!
 
The best thing everybody can do is to make a complaint. It will force management to act.

I have made one complaint already. I will be notifying others to do the same.
 
Yes I agree 100% - I think that is best result any of us can hope for.

And most of us would be fine with that I'm sure, we are hardly asking for anything out of the ordinary.

I just did the sums and I am 45,000 CitiRewards out of pocket so to speak. Not a lot by some standards but that's still $45,000AUD on Domestic spend by my calculations!
 
After reading this thread I was glad I warehouse to transfer to QFF, but decided to transfer just in case only to see that the redemption to QFF has been halved from 1:1 that it has been.

I hate these guys.
 
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