The totally off-topic thread

[RAM]

Well, the Greens here in Tassie loath the renewable, base-load carbon free hydro power that usually services 80-odd% of this state's energy needs. Hydro would have supplied more but of course Bob Brown and his ilk stopped the construction of more carbon free, base-load renewable hydro energy schemes, such that now, when hydro isn't enough, we now rely on a tiny amount of wind, but mostly that nice brown-coal produced base load from Victoria (and other coal from elsewhere) to keep the wheels turning. Oh, and when the interconnector went down last spring, and we couldn't suck on that nice coal made electricity, they re-started the gas power station and brought in a whole heap of diesel gensets to get some electrons going.

Major win for Bob there.

But to answer your question - neither.

Well actually I should have qualified the question by saying as judged by a voter for the three major political parties to make it easier.

The Snowy scheme is very different to Tassie - where only a small capacity exists to 'do a Snowy' aka use brown coal-fired electricity to pump the water up from the lower storage levels.

What all but a fraction of a % of the population do not know is that the Snowy Mountains are perhaps the largest single purchaser of brown coal-fired electricity in Australia.

At night when all but ardent AFFers have turned off their PCs/laptops/iPads/smartphones and power demand is nudging along the bottom - Hazelwood et al continue bulldozing the coal into the boilers as rapidly as they do on a summers day at 3pm with a 7 capitals avg temperature of 37 degrees.

The Snowy however wait for the overnight prices to fall to certain trigger levels and then start powering up their pumps to get the water up high once more. Then during the day once prices have got above certain trigger levels they wind open the sluice gates and down goes the water to drive the turbines. Competing with the gas-fired power stations to take the cream off the top of surging power prices.

Effectively the Snowy is the 2nd worst polluter after the brown coal-fired power plants - worse than the black coal-fired power plants.

Nice way for its owners to turn a buck and sell its 'clean green energy' no?

WARNING: For some this link is as bad as Flightradar...

Nem Watch : Renew Economy

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: Army coup Turkey

JessicaTam, you will achieve 'most esteemed status' when your postings count reaches 10000 so keep those keystrokes going...

I am not quite sure what has triggered that statement.

At 10,000 posts the AFF moniker is 'Posting Enthusiast'.

All AFF contributors are esteemed.

 

[RooFlyer]

Well actually I should have qualified the question by saying as judged by a voter for the three major political parties to make it easier.

The Snowy scheme is very different to Tassie - where only a small capacity exists to 'do a Snowy' aka use brown coal-fired electricity to pump the water up from the lower storage levels.

What all but a fraction of a % of the population do not know is that the Snowy Mountains are perhaps the largest single purchaser of brown coal-fired electricity in Australia.

At night when all but ardent AFFers have turned off their PCs/laptops/iPads/smartphones and power demand is nudging along the bottom - Hazelwood et al continue bulldozing the coal into the boilers as rapidly as they do on a summers day at 3pm with a 7 capitals avg temperature of 37 degrees.

The Snowy however wait for the overnight prices to fall to certain trigger levels and then start powering up their pumps to get the water up high once more. Then during the day once prices have got above certain trigger levels they wind open the sluice gates and down goes the water to drive the turbines. Competing with the gas-fired power stations to take the cream off the top of surging power prices.

Effectively the Snowy is the 2nd worst polluter after the brown coal-fired power plants - worse than the black coal-fired power plants.

Nice way for its owners to turn a buck and sell its 'clean green energy' no?

All sounds pretty reasonable to me! As much as I like your financial/economic analyses and stories, the comment about Hazelwood bulldozing coal into the furnaces during the night is a bit dis-ingenuous. I think most people know that you can't just turn those things on and off (unlike gas and even hydro). So if you have coal as base load, they will keep going overnight so the toasters will work in the morning, let alone the likes of aluminium smelters that don't turn off at night, either. ! Oh yeah, industry ... forgot about them.

So I guess shovelling the coal into the furnaces at 3am makes a bit of sense ... and if there is energy being generated, then full marks for the Snowy Scheme lot to arbitrage the cost to pump the water uphill with base load power that may otherwise go to waste (so its cheap) and then charge the suckers who insist on buying 'green power' at a premium.

Apropos nothing in particular I recall when Premier Polka-Dot Kirner plugged a battery powered car into the mains and purred about the environmental benefits of electric cars, while apparently being clueless about what lay at the other end of the power cord!

 

[Pushka]

Seems SA scores the highest electricity price award

 

[medhead]

I am admitting to playing Pokémon go  I have had great fun with my teenage boys this week and clocked up 30km walking, my eldest has done 66km in a combination of skating and walking.

I would love the battery solution, my my Samsung Note 4 drains at a rapid rate. I have put all obvious battery saving in place, any more help would be appreciated.

Basically buy a battery pack. I picked up extra when dick smith went bust. Also my phone got put into low power mode yesterday. Turns out low power mode is also low charge mode, as overnight the battery only got back to 65%. Only let the apps use your location when open, not in the background as well. (that's a bit of a privacy thing as well). I also try to turn off the screen when possible, these apps will keep it open forever.
I have also loaded on the game. Only because the youngest won't show her version to me. Took the nephew (~5) and 2 children out hunting pokemon. Oldest girl used my phone, as her phone won't run the app. Nephew kept giving me his to "mind" while he went exploring.

So what happened with BHP? Their power cost for one day was $2.5 mill prompting Koutsantonis approaching a private electricity provider to amp its production.

BHP used to have a contract with the SA government to provide guaranteed power - Copper smelters (edit: and refineries) need loads of continuous power. Many years ago when there were rolling power outages due to lack of supply, allegedly the government asked BHP (well WMC in those days) to shut down something. The story goes they just said "nope", or perhaps "yes and we'll invoice you for lost production". Was great when living up there, very few blackouts.

Equally OT question - is the Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme producing "green" or "environmentally friendly" electricity or is it effectively one of the worst polluters there is?

Pretty sure the UMPTNER report found that hydro was one of the lowest polluting technologies over the whole fuel cycle, easily comparable to solar and wind. The other low polluter was nuclear of course. Whole of fuel cycle has to be much more important than just the operational part.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>

BHP used to have a contract with the SA government to provide guaranteed power - Copper smelters need loads of continuous power. Many years ago when there were rolling power outages due to lack of supply, allegedly the government asked BHP (well WMC in those days) to shut down something. The story goes they just said "nope", or perhaps "yes and we'll invoice you for lost production". Was great when living up there, very few blackouts.<snip>

In a former life I managed a mine on the west coast of Tas, with a processing plant (not a smelter!). Negotiated the power contract with the power co ('Hydro'). Got a good cheap rate like most industrials in Tas, but the catch was that we were supposed to agree to 'load shedding' if there was a power shortage. There was an official list of facilities ... and down to individual suburbs and towns that would be progressively 'shed' off the grid if push came to shove ... or worse ... without notice. It was really interesting to see the priority of various suburbs wrt to socio-economic status as to who got to keep their lights on longest!!

During the recent power shortages in Tas, a number of big industrial users agreed to voluntary cut backs - including the Bell Bay aluminium smelter (they can shut down piecemeal, by turning off individual potlines). I think the govt essentially bought back part of the power contracts for each industrial plant (probably with some + +).

 

[rogerkambah]

How are you doing RogerK?

Thanks Pushka. Increasing symptoms now with tumour growing and squeezing abdominal organs - bit like being pregnant my daughter tells me. Received a letter from ACT Health advising of need to attend pre admission clinic the week after this, concerning my admission for 'Elective Surgery'. I would't consider it to be elective surgery.

 

[juddles]

......
WARNING: For some this link is as bad as Flightradar.......

LOL! Thanks for the link - truly interesting!

 

[JohnK]

My mums osteoarthritis in her knee is getting worse. Mobic no relief, GP won't give her an injection for her knee and now she reckons her hip is hurting.

Dreading if she has to get a knee/hip replacement.

Depending on her age Prednisone in moderation could be an option.

 

[cove]

I think you may mean Prednisolone and that is a steroi_.

 

[whatmeworry]

Depending on her age Prednisone in moderation could be an option.

I think you may mean Prednisolone and that is a steroi_.

I think she has had a couple of injections over time from her old GP but I think her current GP is hesitant to give her a shot. Her knee is probably deteriorating but the main problem at moment is the pain makes it hard for her to walk without any pain.

 

[Foreigner]

Thick fog around our district this morning. Maybe citywide.

 

[whatmeworry]

Melbourne in 1966.

[video=youtube_share;NvVdaP6FvFQ]https://youtu.be/NvVdaP6FvFQ[/video]

 

[cove]

Yes I remember life back in 1966. It has mostly been 50 years of good times since then. No more EK/FB Holdens and almost no car manufactururing. Wonder what happened to that couple 50 years on in life.

 

[RAM]

All sounds pretty reasonable to me! As much as I like your financial/economic analyses and stories, the comment about Hazelwood bulldozing coal into the furnaces during the night is a bit dis-ingenuous. I think most people know that you can't just turn those things on and off (unlike gas and even hydro). So if you have coal as base load, they will keep going overnight so the toasters will work in the morning, let alone the likes of aluminium smelters that don't turn off at night, either. ! Oh yeah, industry ... forgot about them.

• You are spot on that they cannot be flicked on or off BUT they can be run at a range not just at max capacity for example.
• Aust aluminum output is almost as endangered species as steel. Annual production has fallen from nearly 2 million tons/ year to around 1.5m, would have fallen significantly more as about 3/4 is exported and facing price disadvantage - however certain State Govs (only 3 involved with 4 smelters left as 2 closed 2012, 2014) have continued to supply power at anywhere up to 80% discount to other major power users.
• By way of comparison Steel production has dropped from 7.9 million tonnes in 2007 to around 4.5 for 2015, though mostly they are not electricity power (the electricity using ones processing scrap metal have all, as far as I am aware, closed down over the last 3 years)

So I guess shovelling the coal into the furnaces at 3am makes a bit of sense ... and if there is energy being generated, then full marks for the Snowy Scheme lot to arbitrage the cost to pump the water uphill with base load power that may otherwise go to waste (so its cheap) and then charge the suckers who insist on buying 'green power' at a premium.

• With the Snowy - selling it as 'Green' when it is sourced from brown coal seems to be false. misleading and deceptive etc, selling it at a premium due to being green...
• Currently coal-fired has excess capacity around 10 giga watts but are receiving 'availability' payments (charged to consumers) in the hundreds of millions despite being 'cold'.
• There have been 3 or 4 recent 'successful' prosecutions where power generators were dobbed in by whistleblowers (in Aust) as the companies were deliberately taking generators off-line to push charged prices up and maximise profits. Profits made in the millions every time, fines charged in a few tens of thousands.

Apropos nothing in particular I recall when Premier Polka-Dot Kirner plugged a battery powered car into the mains and purred about the environmental benefits of electric cars, while apparently being clueless about what lay at the other end of the power cord!

• Politicians and the truth are like children and tidy rooms - rarely seen together.
• Current case - Sydney's CBD & SE Light Rail - State Govt advertising keeps pushing 'clean, fast, efficient' yet the EIS spells out it is the worst outcome possible vs existing buses or heavy rail, and actually will be the least environmentally friendly LR in Australia due to the 79 traffic intersections it will go through (45 with signalised conflicting pedestrian crossings), take longer than many buses it replaces and actually cut capacity. Some 'revisonism' happening at the moment to try and cloud the facts.

 

[Pushka]

Thanks Pushka. Increasing symptoms now with tumour growing and squeezing abdominal organs - bit like being pregnant my daughter tells me. Received a letter from ACT Health advising of need to attend pre admission clinic the week after this, concerning my admission for 'Elective Surgery'. I would't consider it to be elective surgery.

Seriously, elective surgery. Seriously? All the best.

 

[love_the_life]

Thanks Pushka. Increasing symptoms now with tumour growing and squeezing abdominal organs - bit like being pregnant my daughter tells me. Received a letter from ACT Health advising of need to attend pre admission clinic the week after this, concerning my admission for 'Elective Surgery'. I would't consider it to be elective surgery.

Seriously, elective surgery. Seriously? All the best.

The ACT Health Dept works in mysterious ways - and most of them defy all logic.

Good luck rogerkambah. I hope your surgery goes well.

 

[medhead]

In a former life I managed a mine on the west coast of Tas, with a processing plant (not a smelter!). Negotiated the power contract with the power co ('Hydro'). Got a good cheap rate like most industrials in Tas, but the catch was that we were supposed to agree to 'load shedding' if there was a power shortage. There was an official list of facilities ... and down to individual suburbs and towns that would be progressively 'shed' off the grid if push came to shove ... or worse ... without notice. It was really interesting to see the priority of various suburbs wrt to socio-economic status as to who got to keep their lights on longest!!

During the recent power shortages in Tas, a number of big industrial users agreed to voluntary cut backs - including the Bell Bay aluminium smelter (they can shut down piecemeal, by turning off individual potlines). I think the govt essentially bought back part of the power contracts for each industrial plant (probably with some + +).

Just realised a mistake with the previous. The smelter wasn't so much of an issue. It was the copper refinery. Certainly cells were rotated out of service for recharging, but I imagine once the electrons are dragging Cu ions between anodes and cathodes it's rather disruptive to turn off the power for a few hours.

 

[RAM]

Pretty sure the UMPTNER report found that hydro was one of the lowest polluting technologies over the whole fuel cycle, easily comparable to solar and wind. The other low polluter was nuclear of course. Whole of fuel cycle has to be much more important than just the operational part.

Hydro where the water only flows down to generate and is not pumped back up hill = low polluter

Hydro where brown coal-fired power is purchased to pump the water back up-hill to the high storage (responsible for high 90s% of total electricity generation) = 95% as bad a brown coal-fired.

Have you ever seen an article spelling out how the Snowy scheme buys the brown coal-fired power from the La Trobe valley?

Just off their web site, "how we do business"
"Every day we provide fast, clean electricity and gas to our almost one million account holders who are households and businesses – big and small – across the country."

You get a hint from this (if you knew that is):
"In addition, three of these generating units have 200 MW underslung pumps used to return water via the pressure pipelines to Talbingo Reservoir."
and
"By installing these micro-hydro generators, Snowy Hydro Limited will be saving around 3137 tonnes of carbon dioxide each year that could otherwise be produced by coal burning power stations."

They just neglect to mention the orders of magnitude larger (approx 1,400x) for the coal-fired power they continue to buy from the La Trobe Valley daily.

Interesting statistic from their 2015 Annual Report:

The big three energy companies - Origin, AGL and EnergyAustralia - now control 46 per cent of Australia’s generation capacity, up from 15 per cent in 2009.

In 2014 the big three energy companies jointly supplied more than 70 per cent of small electricity customers and more than 80 per cent of small gas customers.

With 4,100MW of hydro generation assets, each year on average Snowy Hydro produces 4,500 gigawatt hours of renewable energy. In doing so, Snowy Hydro prevents around 4,500,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide being released each year.

Trouble is nowhere do they mention the estimated 4,200 gigawatt hours of brown coal-fired power bought to pump the water back up again. A bit of a one-sided story?

 

[juddles]

Thick fog around our district this morning. Maybe citywide.

No fog here in down-town Medellin. But a few rainstorms that are simply delicious. Nothing like torrential rain to provide "white noise" to help me sleep to recover from jetlag