Tigerair Australia Delays/Cancellations

[docjames]

Thanks moa999, i hadn't seen that article.

What a mess, and of course no notice so the travellers are the ones who suffer.

 

[Melburnian1]

Here is some more detail about the number stranded.

As an aside before I post it, tonight the JQ flight from MEL to DPS will be badly late because JQ2 from HNL down to MEL is a few hours late. So happy times all round.

Earlier I called the TT situation re its (cancelled) DPS flights a 'farce' but that was unfair, because it's no laughing matter for hundreds of passengers.

Nocookies | The Australian

If the paywall blocks your efforts at access, Google 'Tigerair passengers stranded in Bali' and it should be accessible.

The other question is 'how far in advance has TT accepted bookings for these flights?'

If the answer is '353 days' or similar, then this may turn into a multi million dollar headache for Virgin Australia as the parent company.

Negotiating with the Indonesian government is not like dealing with the Commonwealth Government in Oz. Neither are perfect, but one of the two is less transparent than the other.

As moa999 implies, it looks like a case of highly paid Australian-domiciled airline managers being 'too smart by half', with it 'blowing up' in their faces to use the old saying. Highly embarrassing for VA - but highly costly as well.

 

[moa999]

An interesting post from a user Chu Chu on Whirlpool forums (who claims inside knowledge) which seems to confirm most of what I flagged above.

Tiger are operating to Bali (after negotiating with both CASA/Indo) on Virgin Australia's AOC, using Virgin 737s rebranded as Tiger. The flights are 'operated by Virgin Australia for TigerAir'. The operation is not entirely Tiger. Virgin own the aircraft, maintain them, and pilots are Virgin. The only thing that is Tiger is the Cabin Crew and livery.

Tiger recently (expected December) did not get its own International AOC certificate after a 12 month process which will drag on a little bit longer. Can't fly out of Australia on a domestic AOC unless non revenue.

Looks like the Indo's lost patience. Nothing new. Jetstar had issues into Bali with its Singaporean based operation and Virgin had problems 5 years ago when they flew into Bali under Pacifuc Blue.

I'm surprised it was even allowed (Tiger on Virgin's AOC) to happen, let alone drag on this long.

This could drag on for a while folks.

For the pax sake I hope the poster is wrong, but agree that VA has seemingly been too smart by half, and put passengers holidays in the hands of the Indonesian bureaucracy.

I also note from other places that some pax have discovered that their travel insurance (not all apparently) has exclusions for cancetiona caused by regulatory issues (I wonder if the TT sold insurance has this?)

 

[docjames]

You'd think the local government would welcome inbound tourism and find a way to keep the flights coming......

 

[Melburnian1]

You'd think the local government would welcome inbound tourism and find a way to keep the flights coming......

It's bad publicity for Bali and Indonesia generally. One might have thought that the Indonesians would be smart enough to say 'well these are the rules...you have seven days to tidy things up, so we'll allow the flights to operate for a week, allowing you time to minimise the number of stranded passengers by making alternative arrangements...' but no, the Indos. just immediately acted.

Bali is competing with coughet/ Krabi/ Bangkok/ Chiang Mai and for those who know about it with its beautiful white sand islands, Philippines - Filipino islands such as Cebu/ Mactan and a number of offshore ones from Cebu Island are pretty good although not all have huge numbers of accommodation options. And there's lots of other islands up there, many of to which I and others have yet to venture.

It's subjective and a generalisation but Filipinos seem friendlier than Thais and less likely to 'overcharge.'

Bali isn't competing so much with Fiji (too expensive in my book) and Cairns/ Whitsundays/ GBR (skyrocketing costs for holidaymakers.)

Bali is also competing for some with the option of a cruise that might bypass it but still travel to some southeast Asian ports.

Australians have short memories and may continue to go en masse to Bali but there are alternatives.

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I also note from other places that some pax have discovered that their travel insurance (not all apparently) has exclusions for cancetiona caused by regulatory issues (I wonder if the TT sold insurance has this?)

moa999, that's a disgrace. Anyone affected should complain to their insurer and if need be in time the insurance industry ombudsman. How can consumers be expected to know about regulatory issues?

 

[Guvner]

An interesting post from a user Chu Chu on Whirlpool forums (who claims inside knowledge) which seems to confirm most of what I flagged above.



For the pax sake I hope the poster is wrong, but agree that VA has seemingly been too smart by half, and put passengers holidays in the hands of the Indonesian bureaucracy.

I also note from other places that some pax have discovered that their travel insurance (not all apparently) has exclusions for cancetiona caused by regulatory issues (I wonder if the TT sold insurance has this?)

I have read through the PDS of some of the main insurers such as TID, Allianz etc and none of those have specific exclusions based on cancellations / delay of travel resulting from regulatory non compliance that I can see. In fact TID have a statement regarding the Tiger situation on their website which suggests that most policies will cover "Delay of Travel" in this instance.


FWIW we have a friend who is caught up in this and strangely she was told by the Tiger rep at the service desk in DPS (when trying to organise another flight) that she wouldn't be covered despite the rep having no knowledge of her policy. It appears as though the Tiger folks in DPS were forewarned. I don't see why Tiger should be providing that advice, wrongly or otherwise, which causes even more angst for those stranded or delayed. If I was a cynical person I would deduce that Tiger are telling pax this so they won't go out and spend maximum claimable amounts on accom and meals etc which their insurance companies will later seek to recover from Tiger.

The situiation as I see it is: Tiger have either refunded (or will) all fares on cancelled flights for those yet to travel, or will organise a flight back home on another carrier for those who have commenced travel. Any claim for those stuck in DPS looking to get home will be for Delay of Travel not Cancellation which are two separate insurable incidents.

 

[Melburnian1]

Guvner, how long do you perceive that this situation with TT cancelling flights to and from DPS will continue?

 

[Saab34]

Interesting quote from Indonesia in the last few hours

“They are proposing for an extension* but we found out that they have been selling tickets to the general public, which is not allowed under such permit.”

Effectively a charter operation cannot sell tickets to the public, in other words at tigerair.com.au. That in itself effectively renders Tigers Bali operation not possible.

So unless Tiger gets its own AOC which is probably still a few months away, I can't see flights resuming as selling tickets as a charter is very hard to make work.

Ill take a punt and say Virgin Australia will reinstate the flights under its own banner until Tiger gets the go ahead in the next few months.

Jetstar laughing all the way to the bank no doubt.

 

[Melburnian1]

...Effectively a charter operation cannot sell tickets to the public, in other words at tigerair.com.au. That in itself effectively renders Tigers Bali operation not possible.
...Jetstar laughing all the way to the bank no doubt.

Sunstar320, you must be close to 100 per cent accurate with your comments.

As I said in post 198 above, a 'charter' means a group hires a vehicle - train, bus or in this case plane.

It is easy to criticise and easier to have the benefit of hindsight, bearing in mind none of us always make sound decisions, but one must consider how could such highly paid individuals as these airline executives (with years of experience in their sub-sector) be so silly as to think 'bending the rules' would be acceptable to a government and its bureaucracy in Indonesia with its history of making what can seem like incomprehensible decisions to we Westerners?

Before Jetstar gets too coughy, it and parent QF ran into similar insurmountable problems with its proposed Hong Kong operation.

Another recent media article:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/avia...tigerairs-bali-grounding-20170112-gtq5o5.html

 

[straitman]

Jetstar laughing all the way to the bank no doubt.

Sad when this is the only way Jetstar can get any good publicity :!:

 

[Melburnian1]

Some sense is prevailing: Tigerair has been granted a four day reprieve:

Tigerair gets four-day reprieve to get stranded passengers out of Bali

 

[Saab34]

Interesting proposal they are quoting in using its A320s to fly the routes. That option might have legs. Maybe someone can offer more on this around its A320 AOC?

MEL-DPS might not be able to handle the 320 but a PER-DPS-ADL-DPS-PER routing might be a goer only needing 1 A320.

They should have never bothered switching to 737. One reason I probably won't fly them after the Airbus go, 10-15yr old 737s no thanks.

 

[codash1099]

Interesting proposal they are quoting in using its A320s to fly the routes. That option might have legs. Maybe someone can offer more on this around its A320 AOC?

MEL-DPS might not be able to handle the 320 but a PER-DPS-ADL-DPS-PER routing might be a goer only needing 1 A320.

They should have never bothered switching to 737. One reason I probably won't fly them after the Airbus go, 10-15yr old 737s no thanks.

i don't think the problem is the aircraft type. As I read it, its that Tiger don't have an AOC for international flights.

 

[Saab34]

i don't think the problem is the aircraft type. As I read it, its that Tiger don't have an AOC for international flights.

737 isn't on the Tiger Australia Ltd AOC but the A320 is. Only way they can operate the 737 is via the Virgin Charter agreement (wet leased) which looks dead.

So shouldn't be an issue sending in the Airbus assuming they negotiate to get International access fairly quickly even if just a temp agreement.

 

[moa999]

i don't think the problem is the aircraft type. As I read it, its that Tiger don't have an AOC for international flights.

And given current ownership of VA Group.
The old Tiger entity I suspect can't get an International AOC (as VAH is some 90% foreign owned)

Instead they would need to setup a new Tiger International entity, and place it under the Virgin International entity (which is grandfathered to under 50%)

All very messy

 

[**TBA**]

737 isn't on the Tiger Australia Ltd AOC but the A320 is. Only way they can operate the 737 is via the Virgin Charter agreement (wet leased) which looks dead.

So shouldn't be an issue sending in the Airbus assuming they negotiate to get International access fairly quickly even if just a temp agreement.

Why didn't they just fly the A320s originally then, if it was easier and quicker?

Tiger have taken all DPS flights off sale until the 25th March. The right thing to do by consumers.

 

[docjames]

Why didn't they just fly the A320s originally then, if it was easier and quicker?

Tiger have taken all DPS flights off sale until the 25th March. The right thing to do by consumers.

737 isn't on the Tiger Australia Ltd AOC but the A320 is. Only way they can operate the 737 is via the Virgin Charter agreement (wet leased) which looks dead.

So shouldn't be an issue sending in the Airbus assuming they negotiate to get International access fairly quickly even if just a temp agreement.

In short, range versus effective payload is the reason it wasnt set up that way originally.

 

[basso]

737 Virgin Charter agreement (wet leased) which looks dead.

I was under the impression that a Cherter and a Wet Lease were different things (main distinction being who hasoperational control of flights). Anyway, the harshness of the Indonesian response suggests to me that there is more going on than we have heard. I suspect there is some history behind this.....

 

[Melburnian1]

On Saturday 14 January, TT218, the 0905 hours MEL - SYD and TT233, the 1105 hours in the opposite direction have been cancelled.

[QUOTEI suspect there is some history behind this.....END QUOTE]

basso, this Bali lack of flight approvals could end up costing parent company VA millions of dollars. One wonders if anyone will lose their job over it?

Would Tigerair CEO Rob Sharp be on his way to Jakarta for some frenetic lobbying?

 

[yohy?!]

I was under the impression that a Cherter and a Wet Lease were different things (main distinction being who hasoperational control of flights). Anyway, the harshness of the Indonesian response suggests to me that there is more going on than we have heard. I suspect there is some history behind this.....

Likely the change in department overseeing them led to their license being reviewed by someone who looked on TT less 'favourably' than others.