Upcoming Qantas Frequent Flyer Changes

[medhead]

To keep WP is difficult, as I get 1/2 the SCs of a J traveller, so by definition I need to fly 2x as much as a WP in J.

And I choose to do so with QF (or 3K here in Asia) as often as I possibly can, only choosing another OW carrier when you don't service the region.

Can you explain what makes a WP spending in J (or F) so much more important than one who flies Y that they get Loyalty Bonus and the Y WP does not?

I'd have thought the answer to that is QF make more money from the WP in J or F than the WP in Y.

I really don't think the answer is that obvious at all. The question is in relation to someone getting half the SC as someone in J. This means they are flying full economy not discount economy, so they are making a big contribution to profit already. Then they are flying twice as much as the J pax to get to the same level. Given the service differential between Y and J I would guess that the costs of 2xY might be similar to 1xJ.

Anyway, the more I think about this the more it seems, if discount Y is not making enough money to give out platinum then they should raise the bar and not drop the benefits. (or perhaps marginalise the extra benefit of platinum)

 

[Keith009]

QF's update on FB:

Qantas
Have you seen the exciting new changes to our Frequent Flyer program? Increased cabin bonuses, new Platinum One tier, more status bonuses for Silver and Gold, improved upgrade experience and more! What do you think?

Accordingly I've responded:

Unfortunately as a Platinum member who does not fly enough to reach the lofty heights of 2400 status credits let alone the Platinum One tier, I am feeling significantly disadvantaged relative to the positive enhancements that our Gold counterparts have received. In the last few months I have lost Anytime Lounge Access and the ability to give my partner complimentary Partner Gold status (which equates to a loss of bonus points for us both to spend). As someone who earned 2200 status credits the previous membership year, with most of it on Qantas operated flights, I do think that I contribute a not insignificant amount of revenue to Qantas. I'd concede that someone who's eligible for the new Platinum One tier is of far greater value to Qantas than someone in my circumstances. However one would think that there is enough volume of Platinum members of my profile (we're surely a bigger group than members who are eligible for the new Platinum One tier) that Qantas should worry about. Consequently I regard this latest set of changes as a slap in the face and nothing more than a desperate attempt to fend off an increasingly competitive Virgin Australia. If the Qantas FF team thinks that existing Platinum members in my position will be enticed to continue flying with Qantas beyond the minimum requalification level for Platinum status and not even be slightly tempted to explore potentially greener pastures on the Virgin side of the fence, they are seriously out of touch with their members. In fact due to the gradual erosion of standard Platinum benefits and increased benefits that Gold members enjoy, I am seriously not bothering with attempting to keep Platinum beyond June 2012; after all Gold only requires half the status credits and by maintaining Gold on both Qantas and Virgin I'll save a whole lot of dosh by adopting a BFOD policy rather than being blindly loyal to Qantas.

Apologies for the lack of paragraphs. I keep forgetting to hold down Shift along with Enter as is now required on FB to start a new paragraph, as Enter itself causes an incomplete comment to be posted, so I've done away with paragraphing altogether. I think I'm allowed some leeway with vitriolic FB comments.

Anyway I'm glad to see that these sentiments are shared amongst the wider QFF community beyond the usual FF fora. I think everyone should post something - even if they ignore the negative feedback at least they can't pretend that we're all totally thrilled.

 

[pshepvic]

I really don't think the answer is that obvious at all. The question is in relation to someone getting half the SC as someone in J. This means they are flying full economy not discount economy, so they are making a big contribution to profit already. Then they are flying twice as much as the J pax to get to the same level. Given the service differential between Y and J I would guess that the costs of 2xY might be similar to 1xJ.

Anyway, the more I think about this the more it seems, if discount Y is not making enough money to give out platinum then they should raise the bar and not drop the benefits. (or perhaps marginalise the extra benefit of platinum)

Good point. But I'm pretty sure that discount Y is making money anyway. If we look at discount Y, then 4x Disc Y might also be similar to J - maybe not quite as much, but getting there.

The other consideration that has to be made is that there are many more paid seats sold in Y than J, both in numbers and percentage wise. I'd be guessing that at least 20-30% of seats in J are award seats. In economy I'm pretty sure it would be less than 10%.

These award seats in J are not nearly as profitable as the paid seats. MEL-SYD an award seat is 16,000 points plus $20-ish in taxes. Those 16,000 points could have been "bought" from Qantas by a C/Card company or the like, who have probably paid 1-2 cents each. So between $160-320 (and that's being generous) - or somewhere in the range of 25-50% of the cost of a full fare paid J seat.

Back in economy, someone paying 8,000 points for the seat has contributed somewhere between $80-160, which is pretty close to the actual price of the seat on a red e-deal.

Finally, percentage wise, there are likely to be more cancellations in J due to more flexible fare conditions, resulting in more empty seats. Of course these can be sold as ODUs, but again, that doesn't always make up the fare difference from what was paid for the original Y seat.

My point here is that Y seats ARE very profitable. You can't run an airline without them ... just look at Oz Jet

 

[browski]

My real-world scenario:

Next week I fly to HK. I have a choice of airlines (primarily QF or CX) and a choice of FF programs to use (QFF or AAdvantage). I hold oneworld Sapphire status with both FF programs. Fare will be B booking class.

Choice 1: Fly QF flights and credit to QFF

To depart Sunday and fly day-time, I need to take QF8 to SYD and QF127 to HKG. Returning Friday night on the direct overnight :evil: QF97. No direct daytime option from QF in either direction.

I will earn 16,549 QFF points based on 75% status bonus and traveling in economy. That is 61.3% of the points needed for a one-way BNE-PER business class award (the award flight I redeemed was return BNE-PER for Mrs NM).

I will also earn 70 SCs (no double SC promo for me), which is 5% of what I would need to reach Platinum status or 11.7% of that required for Gold re-qualification - but I have lifetime gold so status retention is not relevant to QFF.

Choice 2: Fly QF and credit to AAdvantage

Same flights and fare class as above. I would earn 18,774 AA miles (I get 100% status bonus with AAdvantage Platinum status) which is 107% of that required for a BNE-PER business class award.

I will also earn 14,080 Elite Qualifying Points, which is 14% of that required for Executive Platinum (oneworld Emerald) status or 28.2% of the way to re-qualifying AA Platinum status for next year.

Choice 3: Fly CX and credit to QF

CX has direct daytime flights in each direction, thus saving me about 4 hours on the outbound and avoiding the overnight return.

I would earn 8,861 QFF points (31.9% of required for the same award as above) and 70 SCs (same as for QF flights).

Choice 4: Fly CX and credit to AAdvantage

Direct daytime flights as per choice 3. I would earn 16,144 AAdvantage miles (100% status bonus applies to CX flights) which is 92.3% of that required for the same award as above. I would also earn 12,918 EQP or 12.9% of Executive Platinum status earning or 25.8% of Platinum status re-qualification.

Hi NM, I cannot recall if you were BNE or MEL domestile or not, but just for fun could you not....
Choice 5:
Fly RJ HKG-BKK in J which would cost $275 and earn superior FFP/SCs in whatever program, then......
Fly JQ Starclass BKK-MEL, which would cost $879 and earn plenty of FFP/SCs in QF?

 

[zeiron]

Hmmm "Loyalty Bonus" changes from 11.1 QFF points per SC uncapped to 16 per SC, capped at 32,000 per year.

Is that per membership "year", or per Calendar year?

Personally, I would have preferred the re-introduction of of UC's, maybe capped at 4.

Moreover, what happens to a FF who earns 490 SC's in a membership year? Will they get the 8000 with the first 10 earned in their next year?

according to the QF website:

"Currently members earn a Loyalty bonus of 5,000 points for every 450 Status credits earned. Loyalty bonuses will be calculated this way only until 30 November 2011.
From 1 December 2011, members will earn a Loyalty bonus of 8,000 points for every 500 Status credits earned within a single membership year - up to a maximum of four Loyalty bonuses per membership year.
At 1 December 2011, Status credit balances relating to the calculation of the Loyalty bonus will be adjusted to recognise only those earned within the member's current membership year. Status credits earned in previous membership years will not be recognised in the calculation of Loyalty bonus after 1 December 2011.
At the end of your membership year, Status credit balances relating to the calculation of the new Loyalty Bonus will be reset to zero."

My understanding of this is that NO, the member will not be able to use the next 10 SC from the next membership year, as the SC earnt will be reset to zero, much like they are now when used to determine status. It seems that SC will now be used to calculate status and the the loyalty bonus in each membership year, and will reset to zero on your anniversary for both purposes. This is going to pi$s many people off... including me!
It initially sounded ok, but im sure they have done their sums and worked out that this "enhancement" is only beneficial to QF.
Overall, the changes benefit SG mostly (lucky me!!) but I too would prefer the return of the old upgrade credits and the removal of the upgrade restrictions on red-e-deals. I fail to see the importance of the original fare class when it comes to upgrades, given that they often have "special offers" allowing upgrades from these fares.
Not sure these changes will prevent my move to VA, despite requalifying for SG, less than a month into my new year, meaning ill be SG for the next 23 months!

 

[Jobu]

I'd have thought the answer to that is QF make more money from the WP in J or F than the WP in Y.

I'd like to know how they do so as for anyone flying Y (most would be flying discount economy) you need to fly twice as much as anyone flying J.

SYD - LHR, One Way, November

Economy:
Economy Sale: $1,033
Red e-Deal: $1,356
Super Saver: $1,660
Flexi Saver: $2,020

Business:
Exclusive Business: $4,572
Business Saver: $5,957
Business: $7,441

First:
First: $9,560

SYD - PER, One Way, November:

Red e-Deal: $257
Super Saver: $501
Flexi Saver: $891
Fully Flexible: $1,109
Business: $2,013

 

[Jobu]

Actually, it's common for airlines to skew premium rewards to customers with higher revenue generation - eg Singapore PPS.

And then there are airlines that skew towards higher profitability customers...

And then there are airlines that have a combination of revenue or number of flights measures, such as KLM's Flying Blue - achieve platinum with EITHER 70k level miles OR 60 flights, which rewards both premium flyers and frequent flyers.

 

[zeiron]

Interesting article on SMH here with Joyce directly contradicting his colleague, Ms Tully:

Tully: . . . She said "numbers [of Platinum One members] are still being finalised but it would be quite a small group" (AFR, p. 4, today).

Joyce: "They fly so much that once they get to Platinum we want then [sic] to keep on flying so they get to Platinum One . . . There is a lot of money in that because, believe it or not, there's a lot of people out there that get to those levels".
​

Hard to believe that QF's inconsistent service offering extends to management's inconsistent knowledge of their own product!

Are you really, genuinely surprised by this? Im not!

 

[pshepvic]

Actually, it's common for airlines to skew premium rewards to customers with higher revenue generation - eg Singapore PPS.

And then there are airlines that skew towards higher profitability customers...

And then there are airlines that have a combination of revenue or number of flights measures, such as KLM's Flying Blue - achieve platinum with EITHER 70k level miles OR 60 flights, which rewards both premium flyers and frequent flyers.

Currently VA skews towards higher profitability customers - for domestic anyway, considering it's a points per $ model, not points per mile.

 

[nlagalle]

QF's update on FB:

Accordingly I've responded:

Anyway I'm glad to see that these sentiments are shared amongst the wider QFF community beyond the usual FF fora. I think everyone should post something - even if they ignore the negative feedback at least they can't pretend that we're all totally thrilled.

I too replied on that same post by Qantas, and I was surprised (actually I shouldn't have been!) as the negativity on that FB post. What surprised me more was all the people liking my posts! A few pissed off WP's on FB too. I wonder how many are on here too!

 

[Princess Fiona]

I too replied on that same post by Qantas, and I was surprised (actually I shouldn't have been!) as the negativity on that FB post. What surprised me more was all the people liking my posts! A few pissed off WP's on FB too. I wonder how many are on here too!

Yes I agree the Facebook posts were a little surprising, also the fact that QF responded mid rants similar to Red Roo to state that they were monitoring the feedback :shock:
Perhaps QF have begun to truly embrace social media?

 

[jdlover23]

QF's update on FB:

Accordingly I've responded:

Apologies for the lack of paragraphs. I keep forgetting to hold down Shift along with Enter as is now required on FB to start a new paragraph, as Enter itself causes an incomplete comment to be posted, so I've done away with paragraphing altogether. I think I'm allowed some leeway with vitriolic FB comments.

Anyway I'm glad to see that these sentiments are shared amongst the wider QFF community beyond the usual FF fora. I think everyone should post something - even if they ignore the negative feedback at least they can't pretend that we're all totally thrilled.

I just liked your post and posted myself

"as a Platinum with partner gold - im not feeling the love qantas - i have gained nothing of value with these "enhancements" i thought this was a loyalty program to promote loyalty, not to ostracise up until yesterday your most valuable customers"

 

[tyrolean]

First the removal of the any time access and the change of PG were not good for me. I just made 2200 SC last year. 2400 is a bit out of reach.

For my family (wife=my partner Gold, mum&dad=silver, kids=NB) the change of the loyalty bonus is just a slap in the face. They are loyal to QF, when they come to Australia, but this happens only every year or two.
So hopefully Virgin will join *A. Then we will have a choice.


I do not care about a higher superduper level that I never will reach. But getting WP just for the F-Lounge wont be my goal in the future. I will better invest the money in a few restaurant visits.
Maybe we will just stuck with LTG for me and QP for my wife. That gives us lounge access for the family with QF and BA.

Interesting for me are the earning rates on BA. Till now the LTG is the reason for staying with QF.

 

[Alanslegal]

Because of the degradation in benefits that apply to me (WP) and the girlfriend (also WP), which is the forfeiture of loyalty SC at the end of each membership year, I had to book my first ever JASA for November 2011.

At 30 November 2011 I would be sitting on 120 loyalty SC whilst she would be on 370. We couldn't allow 370sc go to waste so ended up booking a SYD-SIN QF31 seat 11A allocated. Sadly, we have a limited amount of QFF points so blowing 60K is a hard decision, furthermore I am already booked in Y (seat 50A) as my fares are usually ex-SIN returns, and seated together holding hands is things that couples sometimes do

JASA cost 60K + $290 taxes + $30 CREDIT CARD FEE! That's in excess of 10% credit card surcharge - really craaaazy I know!

Points earnt will be 3,908 (base) + 3,908 (WP status) + 1,954 (J cabin) = 9,770, and plus 5,000 loyalty bonus = 14,770 ... so all in all, 45,230 + $320 = J flight

Anyway, in my situation, the increase cabin bonus gives my girlfriend an extra 974 ff points, so thanks QF but when I take into account my eventual forfeiture of 120sc @ 11.1 ff points / sc, then we are backwards 358 ff points! :evil:

 

[awilcockson]

Had my say on facebook, for what it's worth:

First you "enhanced" away our anytime lounge access. Now you've "enhanced" the loyalty bonus so that it resets each membership year, rather than carrying over like it used to. You've also continued to effectively erode the benfits of platinum by upping the benefits of silver and gold to the point where there is almost no differentiation between gold and platinum. 75% status bonus for gold and only 100% for platinum, are you kidding? Platinums are you're most loyal customers, as you keep telling us, but loyalty can only last so long.

 

[wandering_fred]

Observations on the changes, the thread and QF operations.

JQ and 3K flights are of little interest to me until OW partners can earn flight counts and mileage even though I have a QF account. The basic JQ business fare should earn economy points and SC with the QF program. Would I use 3K if the prices were about the same as the alternative carriers? Yes I have.
The higher PS status bonus is nice but crediting flights to QF earning at current redemption rates is of little interest, although I won't throw points away (I was PS for two years). The AA PLT (QF SG equivalent) bonus is 100%.
QF international B fare flights should credit at full economy SC (AA/BA/MU/AY/IB/LA/MA/RJ/S7 B fare flights already earn economy SC in the QF program)
All overnight flights of 7+ hours should have a PE cabin available - not just the 388/744s.
QF needs daily flights PER-HKG (or PER-SIN-BKK or PER-HKG-NRT) or code shares on their OW partners when they do not fly or flight times that actually connect with their OW partners onwards flights. Yes there has been some improvement with the connections.
QF should also hope that the general Australian passenger never realizes how much cheaper the same QF flights cost if purchased starting overseas (NZ/Singapore/Hong Kong come to mind)

But then I want a FF program that accepts not all of its frequent flyers can afford to fly in premium cabins all the time.

Apologies - it is late for me.

Fred

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Ok - I'm going to get shot down here... but I for one hope the new WP1 level WILL bring some restrictions to current WP access to First class lounges.

Having recently been on several paid QF F flights, I was surprised at the number of people in the F lounge who boarded the aircraft and turned right.

I'm not sure I want to be sharing lounge resources with people taking jetstar Flounge runs to take maximum advantage of the spa and champage. I've even had to eat a meal balanced on my lap at my seat because the restaurant was 'full'.

If you fly enough to make W1 -fair enough. You're paying enough in fares/time on board to be in that lounge - similar to the LH HON status which requires 600,000 miles a year. And it's such a tiny group anyway.

But someone doing a few YUPs and star class status runs?

I agree. There seems to be a certain naivity here. That exploiting "loop holes" in the system (e.g. working out how to spend $2000 to be WP via YUPPS) will not have consequences. And then, when the consequences occur, there is much moaning.

QANTAS is not a charity - I'm sure they have pretty smart people working out which side of their bread is buttered, and which isn't. Removal of "cheap" JQ StarClass fares is one consequence. Abusing YUPPs (as one person has mentioned previously) to make 3600SCs will simply bring more consequences (i.e. removal of YUPPs as a source of cheap SCs) if said people cost QANTAS money.

The number of posts here, where people describe rather extravagant lunches prior to getting on a JQ SYD-MEL flight is, well, amazing. The idea that QANTAS are not going to think "there's a flight we made $5 profit on, but a $100 loss on the lounge" is, well, amazing to me.

I'm not entirely sure how to restrict access to the F lounge, but certainly there are too many people simply "taking the p*ss" at the moment. Whilst I have only personally paid for F twice in my life, I'd be extremely disappointed if I was paying $7k for a SYD-SIN/BKK flight and having to sit at the window with a plate on my lap.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

So for those who fly in Y and have reached WP status through many more hours of flying should be penalised?

What makes a WP who flies J some much more important than one who flies Y?

One of you is more profitable.

Consider this: If you only flew planes with the limited J & F classes full and economy (coach) hardly full at all, how much do you think those F & J tickets would end up costing? And how soon do you think those airlines would fall over??

Simple answer: there are many economy fliers. As an individual, you are not so important. As a group, you are. I fly a lot of economy, but I'm not going to delude myself that I'm any more important than the other random one-time flyer 20 rows back.

Economy fliers are just as important - we put in more time to garner those SCs and should be acknowledged for our loyalty as much as any other FF.

QANTAS is not a charity. Ultimately it is there it make money for its shareholders. Do you get "loyalty" discounts for buying Holden every couple of years? Does Coles give you an "upgrade" because you keep shopping there? Seems that people think the airline industry is different for some reason.

The class of travel shouldn't matter - SCs are SCs, and a WP flying in economy is the same as a WP flying F - only the seat number differs.

Really? So if I spend $13k on a F class return between SYD-LHR, then I'm only contributing the same profit as someone who does 65 $200 SYD-MEL returns?

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Someone please tell me why I should consider using QFF, even with the "enhanced" Gold Status benefits?

Great that you have a real-world example.

I'm sure QF are well aware of how many people are flying on B class fares. I doubt there are that many of them. It's just not a market they need to cater for.

 

[dfcatch]

I need to address two issues directed to those attacking the "whinging WPs"....

1/ WPs can earn their status through a few premium cabin flights, some YUPs, or lots of whY travel which has numbed their bums.

The discussion has been had before as to which group is more "loyal" to QF. Just as the question is relevant when discussing who is paying for such flights (employer? Or one's own pocket?).

Both groups have done the hard yards to achieve WP status and deserve to receive the benefits of the program.

As far as YUPs are concerned, don't forget that QF gets paid by AA on a commercial arrangement for these SC's. QF isn't missing out. It's exactly the same as if you earned your status from premium cabins on BA or CX. QF don't care - they still get paid by the SC and the FF point.

2/ Don't forget that WPs have to earn TWICE, that's right, TWICE as many SCs as SGs do.

This thread isn't about berating SG's for getting more (good on them-it will help them stay with QF and get to WP). It's about the fact that WP no longer gets much more relatively speaking.

The golden question for QF is:

"Are WP benefits sufficient to entice FFs to spend TWICE as much with QF to get WP? Or will they reevaluate their loyalty after reaching SG?"

PG is out of reach for me - especially at 2400. You can forget P1, unless some of you travelling F/J on your company dime want to sponsor me

I spend a ton of $$ to fly QF to retain my status/give loyalty.

I'm not whinging. But when my WP expires I will genuinely have to consider whether WP benefits are worth me spending so much to stay loyal to QF...??