Upcoming Qantas Frequent Flyer Changes

[medhead]

I had assumed that there was no current restriction on the facility and that perhaps I was wrong and there was. Given your clarification - then I agree - current domestic points ODU lounge system is fine as is.

I'm not sure 100% about restrictions on the lounge upgrade system, but I recently had a flight where there were 5 U fares and 6 D (or I), when I asked at the lounge I was told sorry there are only 2 available, when I wanted 4. However, when I showed the lounge guy the available fares in Expert Flyer, he gave us the upgrades. J ended up full on that flight but shortly after we got our upgrades U changed to 2, instead of 1 (5-4). J ended up being full. Now... I've just realised this doesn't actually confirm, but I had the impression that lounge upgrades could only happen if there was U available.

On the issue of "devalue" as distinct from revenue - I see your point, but don't agree that it's a problem.

IMHO the value of the premium cabin is to get to enjoy better service and a better seat. If i want that seat/service then I need to pay for it. Either through:

- cash
- points upgrade
- points award
- earned WP comp. upgrade

I don't see it as devaluing the cabin in those scenarios.

But I agree with you that if free unrestricted anything goes at the gate upgrades were handed out - then it would devalue it for me.

I agree, I was only thinking of devaluing it, if there was the fill every empty seat approach - unrestricted, free, etc.

 

[Ewok]

So pretty clear for WP's like me then. QF clearly wants most people to be SG!!!

LTG is the way to go, as a back up, and look at maintaining status on another airline or program.

At what stage will QF really start to look after it's WP's?

This is what I plan on doing. I have been doing enough with QF to maintain Platinum, and then almost everything else is on Sky Team.

Living outside of Australia will make it difficult to get to "Platinum One" so I think I will just make do with LTG and focus on maintaining Sky Team Platinum and try and getting somewhere with STAR.

 

[connieguy]

That would devalue the J product so yes it would cost qantas.

Giving the most senior WPs upgrades to domestic and international J seats after the doors close devalues the QF J business how? They can't sell J seats once the doors close and those WPs who choose to take a bet on getting a J seat in the door close lottery cost QF what? Sorry but this is Win / Win and it costs QF NOTHING but would gain QF a lot of -Y and Y business.

I mean those Paxs that buy J / F on their corp accounts will not change their buying habits. But many will take the possible J punt and invest in a -Y or better still Y or ever better Y+ ticket if they knew every QF flight's J and F seats will always take off full.

QF cost? Very little. Value of QF to their customers? Very amazing and world's best FF treatment at almost no cost.

 

[connieguy]

In this example, it's not an OpUp. It's just allowing you to have a domestic ODU if the cabin isn't full.

BTW - ODUs are a published QP benefit, there is no reason to restrict them at the last minute.

They're not free - they cost you points.

The whole point is they are free. Once the doors close, it costs QF NOTHING to OpUp the most senior FF in each cabin to the empty seats in the next cabin. Smiles all around as the flight crew taps you on the shoulder and says "Up You Go". I have seen it happen on AA in the states. Amazing and a No Cost way to reward FFers when the doors close and the next cabin is not full.

Non FF Paxs then want to join the system as they see FF value happening before their eyes. Nothing but Win - Win - Win and full planes.

 

[medhead]

Giving the most senior WPs upgrades to domestic and international J seats after the doors close devalues the QF J business how? They can't sell J seats once the doors close and those WPs who choose to take a bet on getting a J seat in the door close lottery cost QF what? Sorry but this is Win / Win and it costs QF NOTHING but would gain QF a lot of -Y and Y business.

I mean those Paxs that buy J / F on their corp accounts will not change their buying habits. But many will take the possible J punt and invest in a -Y or better still Y or ever better Y+ ticket if they knew every QF flight's J and F seats will always take off full.

QF cost? Very little. Value of QF to their customers? Very amazing and world's best FF treatment at almost no cost.

Think about the logistics of what you propose. Close the door and then upgrade people. So it's a free upgrade? Cabin crew can't collect points. What about catering? They've loaded Y meals for the upgraded people, but not J meals. What about the now empty Y seats that could have been sold. Think about all those high SC earning WP1swho will never need to buy a J seat again. What about the people who have purchased J suddenly getting someone dumped in the seat next to them after the door is closed. Will they be happy?

 

[connieguy]

Think about the logistics of what you propose. Close the door and then upgrade people. So it's a free upgrade? Cabin crew can't collect points. What about catering? They've loaded Y meals for the upgraded people, but not J meals. What about the now empty Y seats that could have been sold. Think about all those high SC earning WP1swho will never need to buy a J seat again. What about the people who have purchased J suddenly getting someone dumped in the seat next to them after the door is closed. Will they be happy?

I have seen it happen many times on AA in the states. Works OK.

Talked to several guys in AA and they see it is like a lottery. Buy -Y or Y and take a punt if F seats are available or pay for the F seats. If F is full, sorry but you fly in the cabin you paid for. Corps never take the risk and always buy AA F. I suspect QF Js would do likewise and spend the corp dollar to secure QF J seats instead of risking QF J being full and spending the flight sitting in the rear Y cabin. Can't see why it would not be a QF winner. I mean when the doors close, the QF sales for that flight are history, so why not use empty Y+, J & F seats to reward the most senior QF FFs on the flight with a cabin upgrade?

As for meals, I have never seen a empty QF galley. Have you? Why would it be hard to load enough meals to cater for a full Y+, J and F cabin or to serve the "Tap on the shoulder" upgrades meals from their original cabin if the upgraded galley is really empty? I mean if AA can handle it, why can't QF?

 

[JohnK]

I get that many WP's are disappointed at the loss of or dilution of certain benefits, but the main issue of contention appears to be the improvement to PS and SG with no change to WP.

Those improvements should never have happened without increasing Platinum benefits as well. QF specifically went out of the way to exclude a very important tier from the current "enhancement/announcements".

I think we should all step back and remember that FF membership is not a god given right. The status and corresponding benefits should be enjoyed for what they are, even if we don't always agree with them. Overall, I cant believe I'm going to say this, but pretty good effort QF!

And again I believe you have totally missed the point.

We have stepped back and thought about the current changes.

Most of us have come to the conclusion that there is no longer a justifiable reason to do the extra flying to get Platinum status over Gold. Why because Platinum benefits have been diluted over the last few years where as Gold benefits have been enhanced to the point where there is no great difference between Platinum and Gold.

What are the differences

- First Class check-in (only good if you do overseas travel)
- First Class lounge (only good if you fly overseas from SYD/MEL regularly and I am not going to give the JQ F lounge runs any dignity here)
- Guaranteed economy seat purchase at last minute (with conditions, no thanks)
- op-ups (lets not even go there as I have not had 1 close to a year and many others have only had one in their lifetime yet almost anyone can move forward cabins if they are on the right flights selling 3 class on 4 class aircraft)
- 100% bonus? (big deal if Gold is already getting 75% bonus, one have to do a lot of overseas flying to even a significant amount of QFF points over Gold)
- perceived loss in loyalty bonus and resetting the target each membership year
- premium desk? (some believe Gold gets this already but not a huge benefit already

What have I missed that may be that important?

At the end of the day QF will lose a lot of business from Platinums as a result of a backlash against the "enhancements". Do you think that QF anticipated this loss? I don't think so. Let's hope that for QFs sake the loss in business from Platinums is offset by any gain in business from Silver and Gold but I fail to see how this will materialise....

 

[Mal]

I've stayed out of this thread. Wasn't sure what I could add previously.

But a few points (some have already been thrashed out).
WP One. What a horrible idea. Not the concept of it - I know it already exists in certain ways. But an airline couldn't balls up an implementation more if they tried. It has already been advertised as 3600SC with no QF requirement, but now I've seen "Oh we're still working on the QF SC requirement". What does it offer? "Oh, we're still working on it". Is it 3600+SC "Oh, perhaps. But that's the lower end of qualification, it's still being worked out if you'll earn it at 3600SC" - "But trust us, it will be good".

Oh please. Why announce something like that with no data behind the concept and a changing qualification level? The disconnect between the CEO and internal staff is very bad PR. Did someone get the sack for handling it so badly?

I agree with others that SG and PS have been enhanced to the detriment of WP. Doesn't really affect me, but I do monitor this stuff and it affects certain decisions I make.

Qantas really needs to realise that they don't have the market stitched up. The revamped Velocity Rewards (when it happens) will be a huge shock to the FF market within Australia. Qantas FF should be trying to appease WP's (and SG in particular) to stop the defection.

 

[cove]

JohnK your post is a great summary and you can see Gold pretty much works.
I had the misfortune of letting Mrscove slip below Silver by not having 4 eligible flights so I changed her to Platinum to have a look if the booking engine or points flights was superior to Gold. No big difference noted on line as Gold seems to get the same stuff.
Often out of the US there is dust so we use Kris points on SQ to get back home and I really think QF do that on purpose to sell tickets in the higher classes.
I guess you cannot blame QF for being profit driven as the alternative of failure with Ansett is still incomplete a decade later.

 

[medhead]

I mean when the doors close, the QF sales for that flight are history,

As for meals, I have never seen a empty QF galley. Have you?

However, if the upgrade happens before the door closes then sales are not history. You're basically saying to hand out business service at red e deal prices.

I have seen and experience a lack of meal and/or choice in late upgrade situations. In that situation I would also I've been mighty annoyed if they gave me the "snack" from economy.

From reports on AFF of the US upgrade system, I don't want that here.

 

[Jobu]

PS: some nice suggestions there gowatson for WP1. But I'd say unlimited access to CL instead of just 12 passes. . Wouldn't be bothered with the AIR magazine tho.

And if upgrades are changed to be confirmed in advance, I'd like to ideally see guaranteed seat in class of choice within x hours of flight, not just economy...

 

[equus]

I had the impression that lounge upgrades could only happen if there was U available.

That is definitely not the case (at least with respect to only getting an upgrade if U is showing in the system when you ask). The confirmed upgrades 24 hours prior (or earlier) work on U inventory, but the lounge upgrades are different.

What follows is simple speculation based on observation and experience along with pure guesswork.

That is not to say that U availability may not play a part in ODU upgrades from the lounge. I suspect that if you ask prior to close off of check in (say 45 minutes before flight departure), you might get upgraded immediately if U availablity exists. Otherwise, they take your boarding pass, and you find out later.

After check in closes, things get re-evaluated. Whether yield management then makes U class available for the upgrades to be processed, or whether a list of those successful just gets spat out, I have no idea.

In any event, I strongly suspect there are multiple modes in play at the same time.

 

[simongr]

I generally am able to get a dom upgrade using ponits 24+ hurs ahead if there is I availability.

On the topic of confirmable upgrades impacting revenue - I actually don't think this would have a significant impact on J revenue. I don't think that there would be that many people currently paying for J that would downgrade to Y if they could points upgrade to J.

There are two types of people in J - those that paid for their seat form their own cash or their personal company's cash and those that are on company funded trips.

For the company funded I doubt that many of them would save the company money and use their own points for upgrades unless the company "owned" the points - which is not the norm. I believe that these people form the bulk of J paid seats.

The impact might be more severe in F as people in those seats might be self funded with more access to points so there could be a revenue impact.

Conversely it might increase revenue. For example I have to go with mrssimongr and toddlergr to Cyprs in 2013. It is unlikely that this will be a QF points trip as I will not have 750K points for J seats to LHR so in order to keep costs down I might fly on a cheaper carrier in J to London. Now if I could get a confirmable upgrade to J from Y+ I would buy a Y+ ticket syd-lhr and upgrade using points. this increases revenue.

Also if QF had a reasonable history of J to F OpUps then I would also put J flights to QF rather than another carrier.

 

[Leumas]

What are the differences

- First Class check-in (only good if you do overseas travel)
- First Class lounge (only good if you fly overseas from SYD/MEL regularly and I am not going to give the JQ F lounge runs any dignity here)
- Guaranteed economy seat purchase at last minute (with conditions, no thanks)
- op-ups (lets not even go there as I have not had 1 close to a year and many others have only had one in their lifetime yet almost anyone can move forward cabins if they are on the right flights selling 3 class on 4 class aircraft)
- 100% bonus? (big deal if Gold is already getting 75% bonus, one have to do a lot of overseas flying to even a significant amount of QFF points over Gold)
- perceived loss in loyalty bonus and resetting the target each membership year
- premium desk? (some believe Gold gets this already but not a huge benefit already

What have I missed that may be that important?

To be fair, WPs can effectively ring up and ask for an award seat to be opened up with a high chance of success. However, if SGs can also access the Premium Desk and can potentially do the same thing, this preceived unwritten benefit may not be real.

Another great unwritten benefit, which may or may not exist is when things go wrong. I've had several instances where my incoming flight was delayed, causing me to miss my connection. The Premium Desk would kick in without prompting and rebook me. They've literally rebooked me while I was still in the air on the incoming flight and left a message asking me to call back and tell me my new flight details. Now, I don't know if this happens all the time and to all WPs, but I'd bet it's less likely to happen for the lower tier members.

WPs can also access the domestic J lounge, which is a little bit better than the standard QC.

 

[oz_mark]

But an airline couldn't balls up an implementation more if they tried. It has already been advertised as 3600SC with no QF requirement, but now I've seen "Oh we're still working on the QF SC requirement". What does it offer? "Oh, we're still working on it". Is it 3600+SC "Oh, perhaps. But that's the lower end of qualification, it's still being worked out if you'll earn it at 3600SC" - "But trust us, it will be good".

{...}

Qantas really needs to realise that they don't have the market stitched up. The revamped Velocity Rewards (when it happens) will be a huge shock to the FF market within Australia. Qantas FF should be trying to appease WP's (and SG in particular) to stop the defection.

So criticise QF for announcing things that aren't finalised, and say they are bad and then compare it to a program that has been announced but no detail.

So you are saying:

QF "Trust Us it will be good" = bad
DJ "Trust Us it will be good" = good.

 

[TonyHancock]

So criticise QF for announcing things that aren't finalised, and say they are bad and then compare it to a program that has been announced but no detail. You could also say of Velocity rewards "trust us, it will be good".

We are caught in a game of cat and mouse with DJ and QF. I wish they would get on with it!!!

 

[oz_mark]

We are caught in a game of cat and mouse with DJ and QF. I wish they would get on with it!!!

Me too. But I don't think you can criticise the QF approach of a teaser announcement, and then say that they will get splattered by a program that also has no detail.

 

[dajop]

To be fair, WPs can effectively ring up and ask for an award seat to be opened up with a high chance of success. However, if SGs can also access the Premium Desk and can potentially do the same thing, this preceived unwritten benefit may not be real.

This used to be terrific, and used to happen on even quite full flights. Last year my success rate was much lower (and it had reverted to computer driven rather than manual I believe). I was advised that can only be requested if certain booking classes are available (D in business, Q in economy I think) - don't know if that is true or not, but I was told this by premium desk. Trouble is with economy in particular if the low booking classes are available there's a good chance that there's a redemption seat. Also was told it only applies to international flights, whereas once you could do for domestic as well.

 

[docjames]

The disconnect between the CEO and internal staff is very bad PR. Did someone get the sack for handling it so badly?

Mal, you've hit the nail on the head.

This botched exercise (Plat 1) reflect the disconnect between management and staff, and a CEO who doesnt have enough nouse or experience with premium airline management to realise when told this info that it wasnt complete enough so he shouldnt announce it, or if he did have enough info, he otherwise botched the info that should have been released (ie. We're planning a new upper echelon, details tba - not here's one detail and not any others. And what was with naming three Plat 1 FFers - WTF???)

The guy who needs the sack for handling it badly is the guy that makes the announcement. Unfortunately he's the CEO who is so backed by the board it's not going to happen.

Qantas seem to just believe their own PR and cant take useful external (constructive) criticism to improve their business. Like many other organisations (The AFL is one that springs to mind - i'm sure others can name many more).

 

[ajca]

The guy who needs the sack for handling it badly is the guy that makes the announcement. Unfortunately he's the CEO who is so backed by the board it's not going to happen.

Are you serious? No disrespect to anyone here, but do you really think the CEO of a $5bil company should be sacked because a tiny group of people are complaining on an internet forum over an announcement of future plans that doesn't contain every single last detail to your fully satisfaction?

How many potential WP1s are even on AFF? Do we have any evidence that any potential WP1s even upset about this new level which will clearly benefit them?

Why are you so angry about this? Does it even affect you? I'm guessing if you're only 39% to LTS, then QF will have announced all the details you want long before to make it to WP1.

Qantas's strategy of outlining a new initiative and then releasing progressively releasing details is completely legitimate, common practice, and not at all surprising (I say this as a communications strategist who advises senior management of some of the biggest companies in Australia on marketing & PR issues).

If you don't like it, try DJ's new frequent flyer program... oh wait...