US Dividend Miles Buy/Gift Miles 100% bonus - Cheap way for F/J *A Awards

[MEL_Traveller]

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I'd be replying that I haven't sold/bartered miles except legimately and asking what specific reasosn they believe they have to close accounts.

you can't sell/barter miles legitimately!. The only time you can buy miles is from USDM (via points.com).

Bottom line is that you won't have to write such a letter because you're not going to get audited!

Audit seems to be the following:

• purchasing a ticket for someone else, and
• different surname, and
• not travelling with the account holder

haven't done all of the above? then no need to worry. Rest assured USDM won't take this sort of thing lightly. If they get it wrong they could be royally sued in the states. So I'm pretty sure this action only takes place if they have good grounds.

Shanyee - did your mother fly anywhere using her points?

 

[Alanslegal]

When they closed my own account I think there was around 20,000 miles so they thought this isn't enough let's take them all there's nothing he can do about it he's in Sydney .

I will disagree to this opinion. US in their termination of your account/s would have not taken that chose of action lightly. They would have only done so if they believed you (and any other accounts) breached any of the T&Cs and their response so far, seems that their decision is very correct. Cancelling other accounts, as mentioned in this thread, raises serious liability issues for US so they must have had a very compelling reasons to do so.

I would guess there is alot more to the story than what you are prepared to tell us. That's fine.

My speculation is that in your main account you booked a flight for a friend at a money consideration which then raised a red flag. [It's logical that is why you have only 20K balance because you recently redeemed a flight for your friend]. Upon review of your main account, they saw a series of past buy/share/gift transactions, also the use of the same credit card/s, which connected/interlinked a series of other accounts to yours and that they read as were for the ultimate benefit of the your account. That appeared fraudulent and the rest is history.

 

[Shanye2233]

No my mum and sister have not used there points for anything . Only my immediate family . I purchased points for them each on their behalf with my credit card . If usairways knows of the rest of my family why can they cancel their accounts ?

I have also send you a PM

 

[Insaneous]

Upon review of your main account, they saw a series of past buy/share/gift transactions, also the use of the same credit card/s, which connected/interlinked a series of other accounts to yours and that they read as were for the ultimate benefit of the your account. That appeared fraudulent and the rest is history.

But is there anything in T&C to state that you can't open multiple accounts?
How is it fraudulent?

There are two issues. One is the purchasing of ticket for a friend for free or money consideration.

Second issue is having multiple accounts for whatever purpose.

First one is against T&Cs, the second one is not.

 

[burmans]

you can't sell/barter miles legitimately!. The only time you can buy miles is from USDM (via points.com).

Bottom line is that you won't have to write such a letter because you're not going to get audited!

Audit seems to be the following:

• purchasing a ticket for someone else, and
• different surname, and
• not travelling with the account holder

haven't done all of the above? then no need to worry. Rest assured USDM won't take this sort of thing lightly. If they get it wrong they could be royally sued in the states. So I'm pretty sure this action only takes place if they have good grounds.

Shanyee - did your mother fly anywhere using her points?

I knew as soon as I read my post I'd get pulled up for it, yes should have said shared or gifted. But am unsure how US would know that they are different given the concern is not about how Shayne got the points but the use of those points.

And in my case I would possible tick all boxes even though I consider the use perfectly legitimate.

Audit seems to be the following:

• purchasing a ticket for someone else, and (tick, am buying for my sister)
• different surname, and (tick, she has a married name)
• not travelling with the account holder (tick again, while we have a common destimation and hopefully will share similar flights, i.e. will meet up on the way dependant on routing, she lives in NZ and I live in Australia)

 

[bcworld]

First one is against T&Cs, the second one is not.

As has already been mentioned, consider the scenario that shortly before the activity of selling an award ticket there was sharing from other accounts to the fraudulent account...but using the same credit card, in the name of the accused (m'lud) & that also being the same credit card used to pay the taxes and fees on the fraudulent ticket. Add into the mix that perhaps those accounts (we don't know which ones) may have never had redemption activity in the name of the account holder...those accounts start to look like vehicles for pooling miles in a master account...an account which is involved in the sale or barter of award tix. Reasonably, they can be concluded to be involved in the breach of T&C...I think so anyway.

 

[Alanslegal]

Good analogy bcworld.

Here's my intepretation, let's say a person by the name of Jack is going to go rob a bank today. To help Jack's action, he was given a car, uses his own ski mask and hammer. The car is stolen, the ski mask (well that's from his trip to the ski fields in winter) and the hammer (was from his toolbox). Jack goes to the bank, successfully completes his task, gets away with $10K.

Now for all intents and purposes of the crime, the car, the ski mask and the hammer were all acquired for the purpose of the robbery, that is they were all related. When really, the ski mask just happened to be useful, similarly the hammer. Those items were acquired originally for their intended purpose ie for the snow fields and handyman respectively, but were caught up in the breach/crime.

 

[burmans]

As has already been mentioned, consider the scenario that shortly before the activity of selling an award ticket there was sharing from other accounts to the fraudulent account...but using the same credit card, in the name of the accused (m'lud) & that also being the same credit card used to pay the taxes and fees on the fraudulent ticket. Add into the mix that perhaps those accounts (we don't know which ones) may have never had redemption activity in the name of the account holder...those accounts start to look like vehicles for pooling miles in a master account...an account which is involved in the sale or barter of award tix. Reasonably, they can be concluded to be involved in the breach of T&C...I think so anyway.

I'm half with you on this, it is certainly reasonable to assume there might have been involvement, I'm not so sure it reasonable to assume there has been without even an attempt to investigate other possible alternatives. It would also depend in my opinion when these points were transferred, i.e. on the facts of the case rather than an assumed involvement.

 

[travelislife]

And in my case I would possible tick all boxes even though I consider the use perfectly legitimate.

Audit seems to be the following:

• purchasing a ticket for someone else, and (tick, am buying for my sister)
• different surname, and (tick, she has a married name)
• not travelling with the account holder (tick again, while we have a common destimation and hopefully will share similar flights, i.e. will meet up on the way dependant on routing, she lives in NZ and I live in Australia)

This is what worries me a little bit. I use my credit card for all the buying/sharing/paying of taxes and fees when booking on my families accounts (all same surname) and my girlfriends account (different surname) as it is the 28degrees fee free card. Now I have always been very careful when booking tickets to always book the passenger travelling from their own account. But on my recent one the agent accidentally took the miles out of the opposite accounts. So I have:

Traveller ABC ticket paid with miles from traveller XYZ
Traveller XYZ ticket paid with miles from traveller ABC.

All fees and taxes paid from traveller XYZ credit card. Surnames are different. As PNR's are different when an audit is done it would 'appear' that person ABC has just bought a ticket for XYZ a totally random person when this in fact not the case.

I have to just let it slip from my mind and not worry I think, I have already done 2 USDM trips with no issues and only have 20k sitting in 2 accounts so no large risk except for the two tickets I have booked. And I have a sneaking suspicion the large number of miles that Shanye was purchasing/sharing would have maybe triggered an automatic flag from the computer to be followed up by the audit team.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But is there anything in T&C to state that you can't open multiple accounts?
How is it fraudulent?

There are two issues. One is the purchasing of ticket for a friend for free or money consideration.

Second issue is having multiple accounts for whatever purpose.

First one is against T&Cs, the second one is not.

I think you can have multiple accounts - some people do by accident (forgot old account etc). However it can become a problem when you decide to use those accounts other than intended.

The share miles promo says:

Members may receive a maximum of 50,000 bonus miles during the offer period. This bonus is only applicable for Share Miles and the offer does not apply to Buy or Gift Miles transactions. Bonus amounts will be awarded upon completion of the transaction. Bonus miles will be awarded to the recipient of the Share. Offer is subject to change. Offer cannot be combined with any other offer. Only purchases made online are eligible.

Now if you had a couple of accounts, and one was dormant and you got 1x50K bonus on your active account then ok. But if you have multiple accounts and you use each of them to get a 50K bounus in each - then yuo are breaching the offer and you, as the member (singular), are getting more than your allowed 50K.

If US allowed multiple accounts for the purposes of this promo then they would have worded it as: Each account may receive a maximum of 50,000 bonus miles during the offer period. But that's not what it says.

Now Shanyee's mother's account - never been used for a flight for herself, only been used for the purposes of buying miles and sharing them. And using Shanyee's credit card. So in essence, it is shanyee, as the pseudo member, getting more than one lot of 50K bonus. That is not allowed.

yes i know people claim they have an account in their pet's name etc etc... but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, or legal under the Ts and Cs. And I am sure there are other provisions that would capture the use of multiple accounts for this purpose (something like abuse of the program or something... QF has something like that.)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

This is what worries me a little bit. I use my credit card for all the buying/sharing/paying of taxes and fees when booking on my families accounts (all same surname) and my girlfriends account (different surname) as it is the 28degrees fee free card. Now I have always been very careful when booking tickets to always book the passenger travelling from their own account. But on my recent one the agent accidentally took the miles out of the opposite accounts. So I have:

Traveller ABC ticket paid with miles from traveller XYZ
Traveller XYZ ticket paid with miles from traveller ABC.

All fees and taxes paid from traveller XYZ credit card. Surnames are different. As PNR's are different when an audit is done it would 'appear' that person ABC has just bought a ticket for XYZ a totally random person when this in fact not the case.

I have to just let it slip from my mind and not worry I think, I have already done 2 USDM trips with no issues and only have 20k sitting in 2 accounts so no large risk except for the two tickets I have booked. And I have a sneaking suspicion the large number of miles that Shanye was purchasing/sharing would have maybe triggered an automatic flag from the computer to be followed up by the audit team.

don't worry. I only said audit seems to focus on those things (as prima facie evidence for selling/bartering) - but only once they decide to audit. There has to be some trigger for the audit in the first place!

 

[thehound]

I went ahead with a flight for a friend syd-jnb I used my points I paid with my credit card.

To absolutely clarify this Shanye: did the points for your friend's ticket come out of your own personal USDM account (in your name), or did you use points from one of your family member's accounts?

 

[casanovawa]

Hmmm, for a start the arbitrariness of this audit procedure is the worst thing because there can be many explanations.... Is there an equivalent of a US department of fair trading etc that can take these thigns up on behalf of the consumer or does everything need to go to the courts??? You could always contact Judge Judy, see if you can get on tv and have the matter heard for probably stuff all???

I know there can be all sorts of definitions of selling and bartering, but in this promo it is specifically about sharing with other DM members not just family which i think then reduces their strength of claims of people interacting with strangers outside of family...

For instance, I am planning to help a couple of friends in that they have opened their accounts and they should be live before the end of the promo... Now i will transfer miles from my account to them, the plan is that they will pay me for what my orignal 50k miles cost me, and then i may pay for the transfers of the 50k to each of their accounts (or i may even get them to use their credit card on my transfers to them to save my credit card or cards coming up to often - although this immediately indicates a financial transaction with someone else from my account so your almost damned if you do and damned if you don't!!!)...

Either way in this transaction i will have not made any money so does bartering or selling actually have to result in me making some benefit??? If the process to get 100k miles into their accounts will cost me $1135 (my original purchase of 50k miles and then the transfer cost of 50k miles) and they pay me $1135 then i have made no profit or received no benefit... If anything i will have acted as a conduit to get the money to US Air from them... If that is the case i can't see why they would take me to task, but i can see under some of these audit rules how they could perhaps have some issue... Now if i can explain that to them in that way you would hope fairness would come into it and they let it through...

While this may be considered gaming the promo, it basically has the same net effect that US Air get pretty much the same amount of money as if they had done it directly with them (its just i have the seed miles to start the process off), my friends get 100k miles and i am none the better off apart from having spent some time and effort to help my friends and US air reach their individual goals... I guess this could be practice at how i phrase the letter if the fecal matter hits the fan...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hmmm, for a start the arbitrariness of this audit procedure is the worst thing because there can be many explanations.... Is there an equivalent of a US department of fair trading etc that can take these thigns up on behalf of the consumer or does everything need to go to the courts??? You could always contact Judge Judy, see if you can get on tv and have the matter heard for probably stuff all???

I know there can be all sorts of definitions of selling and bartering, but in this promo it is specifically about sharing with other DM members not just family which i think then reduces their strength of claims of people interacting with strangers outside of family...

For instance, I am planning to help a couple of friends in that they have opened their accounts and they should be live before the end of the promo... Now i will transfer miles from my account to them, the plan is that they will pay me for what my orignal 50k miles cost me, and then i may pay for the transfers of the 50k to each of their accounts (or i may even get them to use their credit card on my transfers to them to save my credit card or cards coming up to often - although this immediately indicates a financial transaction with someone else from my account so your almost damned if you do and damned if you don't!!!)...

Either way in this transaction i will have not made any money so does bartering or selling actually have to result in me making some benefit??? If the process to get 100k miles into their accounts will cost me $1135 (my original purchase of 50k miles and then the transfer cost of 50k miles) and they pay me $1135 then i have made no profit or received no benefit... If anything i will have acted as a conduit to get the money to US Air from them... If that is the case i can't see why they would take me to task, but i can see under some of these audit rules how they could perhaps have some issue... Now if i can explain that to them in that way you would hope fairness would come into it and they let it through...

While this may be considered gaming the promo, it basically has the same net effect that US Air get pretty much the same amount of money as if they had done it directly with them (its just i have the seed miles to start the process off), my friends get 100k miles and i am none the better off apart from having spent some time and effort to help my friends and US air reach their individual goals... I guess this could be practice at how i phrase the letter if the fecal matter hits the fan...

???

You are making this far too complicated with your line of thinking. The rules say no selling or bartering. It doesn't matter whether you make a profit out of that or not. It is still selling.

There is no issue about sharing miles as part of the promo (or at any other time you want). The issue is selling/bartering your miles to someone else. That is not allowed. While you may do the honest thing and sell them at cost price, what about the travel agent who pays $2250 for a business class ticket in miles, but then sells it to their client for $6000?

 

[markis10]

If you are sailing close to the wind, don't forget the computer you use leaves fingerprints as well. It's interesting from a moderators perspective what pops up from time to time even on AFF!

 

[bcworld]

If you are sailing close to the wind, don't forget the computer you use leaves fingerprints as well. It's interesting from a moderators perspective what pops up from time to time even on AFF!

I agree...perhaps DMaudit IT is far more proficient than DM in general...but I imagine the IP addresses & dates/times recorded over time could tell quite a compelling story in some cases.

 

[casanovawa]

Sheeesh, now i have to visit internet cafes!!!!

At least my friends are setting up their accounts on their own comps, i just handle a few families one...

 

[Shanye2233]

I didn't make a dollar I actually lost money I charged him for the miles taxes and fees and when my CB platinum converted it I was out of pocket $23 dollars . Now it's much more . I used the same computer same IP address and same credit card . I have called fair trading they can't do anything. I think I'm going to have to search for a company similar but in the states . Maybe dot I'm in sure If they deal with such matters .

I'm also worse ring next time I go to America I could get a nice surprise at the airport ?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I didn't make a dollar I actually lost money I charged him for the miles taxes and fees and when my CB platinum converted it I was out of pocket $23 dollars . Now it's much more . I used the same computer same IP address and same credit card . I have called fair trading they can't do anything. I think I'm going to have to search for a company similar but in the states . Maybe dot I'm in sure If they deal with such matters .

I'm also worse ring next time I go to America I could get a nice surprise at the airport ?

no company in Australia will help you with this. your only avenue is via America.

regarding your upcoming itinerary that is still showing - I would ring US airways and fully explain the situation to them... that your account has been closed and miles confiscated, and you want to know if your ticket is still valid for travel. They will tell you straight away. Otherwise as you say, you could get to the airport and find you cannot travel, or if you must travel, that you purchase a normal seat at normal fare.

I think you still have some options, as I've already explained to you to try and get some of your points back. If I thought you could call fair trading, or called DOT then I would have said so.

If your letter fails, THEN you might consider DOT etc etc.

 

[thehound]

Shanye, did you get the ticket for your friend using miles from your personal account, or from one of your family member's accounts?