VA cracking down on carry on 7kg limit

[jkbaus]

Solo traveller, bad back and problem right arm due to injury10 years ago.
I travel o/s to warm climates Aug/Sept most years with light weight, easy care washable clothing.
Buy toiletries, etc when I arrive at destination to minimise baggage weight.

I use 4 wheel carry on, 7 kg, within allowed dimensions (including the wheels).
I can't carry a bag or even drag a 2 wheeler very far.
Pulling a checked bag from carousel not possible.

I have often asked flight attendant or even other passenger for assistance placing in and retrieving from overhead bins.

So yes, like some others have said, stick to the rules but please don't complain about wheels.
The 4 wheeler makes it possible for me although some airport carpets make this a challenge as well.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Day before Christmas my wife was flying J with VA and they weighed her roll-on bag. Came to 8kgs and she was told to check it in. Given that left her with no carry on bag at all she was forced to go buy one in the terminal. Somehow in the confusion she managed to lose her wallet so spent her lounge-time cancelling all credit cards. But, in a good news story upon returning to SYD one week later the wallet was at lost-and-found with cash and a bunch of mostly useless cards.

Where is the “speechless” emoji when you need it ?
I must admit I stopped flying VA about a year ago, a combination of things that are OT for here. I was alerted to this thread via a Facebook post and thought it must be an April Fool but no, sadly not.
I’m kind of glad I’m not flying them anymore

 

[Austman]

Hi, I went googling for a study on this, can you point me in the right direction please.

Here's one:

https://flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-jun98.pdf

"Sporting Goods, Oddly Shaped Items Have Highest Injury Rates in Study of Falling Overhead Baggage"

"In these data, for briefcases/baggage/luggage, computers and wheels, the injury rates hover around 25 percent to 40 percent and show that wheels pose a special risk for producing bleeding lacerations. When sporting goods or unusually shaped items such as picture frames are involved, the injury rates rise to 50 percent and 82 percent, respectively. Computers, with an injury rate of 26 percent, are small but they can be heavy."

It's actually 24% for briefcases/baggage/luggage. Considerably higher for other items.

 

[straitman]

Similarly, if the average weight of passengers themselves (not their luggage) increases by 16kg that plane would be carrying an extra 2784kg.

The variability among passengers’ weight is almost certainly higher than the variability among hand luggage weight, yet it seems to be a non issue, given that airlines don’t even check passengers weight.

The airlines actually have a black-art method of averaging out pax weights. This has been refined over the years and is surprisingly accurate and all but eliminates the error.

 

[ICUDr]

I agree there should be a size/weight limit and disagree with people that abuse the system.

I also always, if I have 2 carry on items, make sure I'm not seating in a bulk head seat so I can put one item up and the other one under the seat in front of me, simple courtesy but.... 7kg limit (and the strict enforcement of a 100-200 grams over it) is ridiculous.

My bag-pack has:
1 x 13 inch macbook pro
1 x Powerbank and 1 apple cable
1 x Stethoscope
1 x Headphones
1 x Wallet
3 x Pens (+ 1 refill)
1 x Case for my glasses
1 x Toiletry bag: Deodorant, toothpaste and toothbrush + electric razor

= 7.2kg = What am I suppose to check in? my toiletry bag? or maybe the headphones and the pens so I'm under the 7kg limit?

I do 70+ flights per year. Checking in a bag every flight would add at least 15 minutes per flight x 70 flights = to 17hrs more in an airport per year!

The more time we spend at the airport equals to less time we spend with our loved ones.


Its a yes from me but please VA apply a rule that is more realistic and don't punish the people that are loyal to you

 

[straitman]

Actually, as safety studies show, the most dangerous cabin luggage is the lightweight, odd shaped luggage. That type of cabin luggage causes far more injuries than a maximum size bag. It tends to move around and fall out easily.

If safety was the main concern, airlines should actually ban small cabin luggage.

Here's one:

https://flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-jun98.pdf

"Sporting Goods, Oddly Shaped Items Have Highest Injury Rates in Study of Falling Overhead Baggage"

"In these data, for briefcases/baggage/luggage, computers and wheels, the injury rates hover around 25 percent to 40 percent and show that wheels pose a special risk for producing bleeding lacerations. When sporting goods or unusually shaped items such as picture frames are involved, the injury rates rise to 50 percent and 82 percent, respectively. Computers, with an injury rate of 26 percent, are small but they can be heavy."

I'll spend some more time on your report tomorrow but I don't actually believe that the report supports your original comment.

From the report normal bags caused 75% of the incidents and in these cases 24% caused injury. Where as 'other items' caused 25% of the total incidents but 48% of these caused injuries when they fell. The extreme being boxes, picture frames where 82% of items caused injury when they fell.

What I believe you probably should be saying is that on the occasions that lightweight, odd shaped luggage fall they are more likely to cause an injury.

 

[Strategic Aviation]

Another vote for policing size and number of pieces only. (If weight is to be policed, then the limit should be at least 10kg.)

Part of my weight inventory is a delightful set of travel sized electronic scales. They let me know when I am overweight (I mean the bag, husband is good for the former) and they NEVER lie.

The issue is that when the airline's scales lie, your accurate scales count for nothing (because clearly yours are faulty!).

My standard HLO including laptop is around 7kg for obvious reasons. One time the JQ luggage belt claimed that the HLO excluding laptop was over 8kg. Had to laugh but of course you couldn't argue.

I do like the wheels, because it allows us (believe this or not) to travel internationally without checked luggage. I am deadly serious. It is quite possible to go away for 4 days and live out of a 48cm trolley cabin bag.

Erm, are you serious - 4 days?

My HLO endurance is 2-3 weeks

 

[straitman]

I agree there should be a size/weight limit and disagree with people that abuse the system.

I also always, if I have 2 carry on items, make sure I'm not seating in a bulk head seat so I can put one item up and the other one under the seat in front of me, simple courtesy but.... 7kg limit (and the strict enforcement of a 100-200 grams over it) is ridiculous.

My bag-pack has:
1 x 13 inch macbook pro
1 x Powerbank and 1 apple cable
1 x Stethoscope
1 x Headphones
1 x Wallet
3 x Pens (+ 1 refill)
1 x Case for my glasses
1 x Toiletry bag: Deodorant, toothpaste and toothbrush + electric razor

= 7.2kg = What am I suppose to check in? my toiletry bag? or maybe the headphones and the pens so I'm under the 7kg limit?

I do 70+ flights per year. Checking in a bag every flight would add at least 15 minutes per flight x 70 flights = to 17hrs more in an airport per year!

The more time we spend at the airport equals to less time we spend with our loved ones.


Its a yes from me but please VA apply a rule that is more realistic and don't punish the people that are loyal to you

Put your wallet in your pocket and also your pens and presto the problem is no longer a problem.

 

[ICUDr]

Put your wallet in your pocket and also your pens and presto the problem is no longer a problem.

I should have wrote that on "Sarcastica" rather than on Times New Roman

 

[Jack_OC]

The airlines actually have a black-art method of averaging out pax weights. This has been refined over the years and is surprisingly accurate and all but eliminates the error.

Yes I've heard that many times, but are you able to provide data/reports to support this? That's what you're asking of others, so it's only fair that you support your own statements with a similar level of evidence.

The fact is, if variability in carry on luggage weight needs to be accounted for, that cannot be achieved by imposing a weight limit that is very rarely enforced (and that even when enforced can be circumvented by simply moving stuff from your bag to your coat pocket). If this variability was truly important, they would weigh every piece of luggage (or preferably every passenger holding their carry on luggage), but nobody does that.

In any case, imposing a limit does not eliminate variability, as even if it was strictly adhered to, each passenger on a VA flight could have anywhere from 0 to about 8kg (7kg bag + personal item) in carry on luggage, plus perhaps another few kg in their coat pockets. In fact the coat itself (or absence of one) is another source of variability. My guess is that the "black-art" method is used to average out all of this, which is why many airlines impose no limits on carry on luggage weight.

 

[Beano]

I sympathise with ICUDr. I have much the same in a rolling business bag, but no stethoscope or powerbank (I keep all electronics and a DSLR in a separate carry on bag). I also have a change of clothes for up to 3 nights. I struggle to get 7kg. It has been weighed at check-in but only rejected twice. Once I put some stuff in my pockets; the other I had to check it in. My bag is used regularly for flights and all sorts of things go in over the years, cables, memory sticks, and batteries.
The latter is a problem in that a loose battery can cause the bag to be delayed, which in tight interconnection schedules means disaster; missed flights , missed meetings etc.

I remember the heady days of 10 kg as standard carry on. Now different airlines have different policies as seen in this discussion thread. One airline, EasyJet, has no weight limit just a size limit and one bag only. The crunch is that you should be able to lift the bag into the overhead locker yourself with no help from crew (no mention of other passengers).
Which brings me to another issue, that of helping someone else stow or retrieve their bag. What happens if you hurt someone in the process? Do you take all the blame?

 

[drron]

An airline is weighing passengers before they get on flights

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I get weighed pre-flight every fortnight. I find it good as it's a reminder to keep up the fitness routine (which is up and down ). A few week back I was a bit slack and my weight had crept up, so that gave me the impetus to exercise more this fortnight, so I find it a real positive, believe it or not! Hopefully next week, it might be a bit lower again!

 

[Austman]

I'll spend some more time on your report tomorrow but I don't actually believe that the report supports your original comment.

It's not my report!

From the report normal bags caused 75% of the incidents and in these cases 24% caused injury. Where as 'other items' caused 25% of the total incidents but 48% of these caused injuries when they fell. The extreme being boxes, picture frames where 82% of items caused injury when they fell.

What I believe you probably should be saying is that on the occasions that lightweight, odd shaped luggage fall they are more likely to cause an injury.

I think the report's heading makes its main point. Of course the majority of falling items will be "briefcase/baggage/luggage" because that's what bins are mostly loaded with. But when they do fall they are less likely to cause injury than other items such as computers, sporting goods, boxes, picture frames, wheel-fitted carts, strollers and wheelchair parts.

And as I've seen dozens of times myself, when bins are opened, it's the smaller or odd shaped objects that tend to fall out (sometimes a row or two away from the person opening the bin) because they moved or weren't stored very securely. The full size carry-on bags tend not to move as much. I'll agree that a heavier carry-on bag needs care when placing and removing it from an overhead bin. The pax should be capable of doing that safely.

 

[Jack_OC]

An airline is weighing passengers before they get on flights

Interesting article. It implies that the current EASA estimates are as simple as "88kg for a male passenger, 70kg for a female, 35kg for a child". If that's really all there is to it, then it's really just a very rough approximation. Bear in mind that VA consider anyone aged 12 and up to be an "adult" and they don't require a person's DOB to be entered unless they are aged 11 or younger.

To illustrate the importance of this, the following are median weights of males at various ages in Victoria:

• 12 years old - 46kg
• 18 years old - 71kg
• All actual adults (i.e. aged 18 years and over) - 86kg

The median continues to increase with age (up to a point), so it makes sense to assume the average passenger weighs more than the median weight of the entire population, as I would imagine there are a lot more middle aged men on most flights than teenage boys.

However, unless the age distribution of people is highly consistent between flights, there would undoubtedly be errors if they use the 88kg figure across the board - i.e. while 88kg might be an accurate figure across all flights, there is no question that on some flights the average will deviate substantially from that.

Something else occurred to me while reading the article about Finnair - it says they are weighing people "to see if the estimates they're currently using to calculate fuel and safety are accurate". I wonder if VA are doing the same thing? In other words, could this recent pattern be a data gathering exercise, rather than a crack-down per se?

 

[straitman]

It's not my report!

I think the report's heading makes its main point. Of course the majority of falling items will be "briefcase/baggage/luggage" because that's what bins are mostly loaded with. But when they do fall they are less likely to cause injury than other items such as computers, sporting goods, boxes, picture frames, wheel-fitted carts, strollers and wheelchair parts.

And as I've seen dozens of times myself, when bins are opened, it's the smaller or odd shaped objects that tend to fall out (sometimes a row or two away from the person opening the bin) because they moved or weren't stored very securely. The full size carry-on bags tend not to move as much. I'll agree that a heavier carry-on bag needs care when placing and removing it from an overhead bin. The pax should be capable of doing that safely.

No query there. I was simply discussing on your comment

Actually, as safety studies show, the most dangerous cabin luggage is the lightweight, odd shaped luggage. That type of cabin luggage causes far more injuries than a maximum size bag. It tends to move around and fall out easily.

(My bolding)

Yes I've heard that many times, but are you able to provide data/reports to support this? That's what you're asking of others, so it's only fair that you support your own statements with a similar level of evidence.

It seems that you have pretty much answered this yourself in post #135. Suffice to say that the airlines have standard weights they use and that these vary according to nationality groups.

The fact is, if variability in carry on luggage weight needs to be accounted for, that cannot be achieved by imposing a weight limit that is very rarely enforced (and that even when enforced can be circumvented by simply moving stuff from your bag to your coat pocket). If this variability was truly important, they would weigh every piece of luggage (or preferably every passenger holding their carry on luggage), but nobody does that.

At least one example is that FJ weigh every piece and tag all carry on.

In any case, imposing a limit does not eliminate variability, as even if it was strictly adhered to, each passenger on a VA flight could have anywhere from 0 to about 8kg (7kg bag + personal item) in carry on luggage, plus perhaps another few kg in their coat pockets. In fact the coat itself (or absence of one) is another source of variability. My guess is that the "black-art" method is used to average out all of this, which is why many airlines impose no limits on carry on luggage weight.

If you eliminate as much/many of the errors as possible and are still a little bit out then so be it. If you don't and you are 10% out then you have an accident waiting to happen. The question is where do you raw the line? 1%, 5% or 10% error.

 

[UP4014]

Solo traveller, bad back and problem right arm due to injury10 years ago.
I travel o/s to warm climates Aug/Sept most years with light weight, easy care washable clothing.
Buy toiletries, etc when I arrive at destination to minimise baggage weight.

I use 4 wheel carry on, 7 kg, within allowed dimensions (including the wheels).
I can't carry a bag or even drag a 2 wheeler very far.
Pulling a checked bag from carousel not possible.

I have often asked flight attendant or even other passenger for assistance placing in and retrieving from overhead bins.

So yes, like some others have said, stick to the rules but please don't complain about wheels.
The 4 wheeler makes it possible for me although some airport carpets make this a challenge as well.

While no issue of course with people with injuries past or present or another disability, do you think it's a bit much to carry on a bag you can't put in the overhead yourself, after all that's why airlines have checked luggage?

 

[Denali]

.....All actual adults (i.e. aged 18 years and over) - 86kg...

Pfft. My husband at his healthiest, swim daily, run 4 x , personal trainer 2 x per week, lifting weights ect, thinnest was 105kgs.

 

[flying_duck]

I'm delighted to see this and, in fact, I'd love to see them go further and ban wheeled luggage in the cabin. It's called "carry-on" not "wheel-on". Hopefully, enforcing the weight limit will reduce the number of wheeled items due to the intrinsic weight before any contents are added. I can understand people trying not to have checked baggage on domestic flights but I travel mostly on international flights and I wonder what people have in their massive (and often multiple) carry-on luggage.

A few of the other replies have mentioned things like sporting equipment, camera equipment, and ski boots. These are all heavy/hard to replace and expensive. I wish I didn't have to lug the extra weight, I really do

 

[Jack_OC]

It seems that you have pretty much answered this yourself in post #135. Suffice to say that the airlines have standard weights they use and that these vary according to nationality groups.

No I definitely didn't answer it myself. You said:

The airlines actually have a black-art method of averaging out pax weights. This has been refined over the years and is surprisingly accurate and all but eliminates the error.

(My bolding)

Can you please provide a source to back up your claim that their "black-art method .... is surprisingly accurate and all but eliminates the error"?

If you eliminate as much/many of the errors as possible and are still a little bit out then so be it. If you don't and you are 10% out then you have an accident waiting to happen. The question is where do you raw the line? 1%, 5% or 10% error.

Sorry, are you saying that being 10% out when estimating carry-on luggage weight would mean "we have an accident waiting to happen"?

I'm assuming that's not what you meant, as if that was even close to being true, then it would unquestionably be necessary to weigh every piece of luggage. Furthermore, since we know that people weigh much more than their carry-on luggage, and that there is huge variability in the weight of people (even among those within the same category, such as "adult male"), it is clear that an x% error in estimating passenger weight would be a much bigger problem than an x% error in estimating carry-on weight. As such, if it was important for safety reasons to know the weight of carry-on luggage, then it would have to be important to know the weight of passengers too. It makes no sense to say we can just guesstimate the much larger number but then worry about the smaller number.

I think it's pretty clear that the safety margin regarding weight is much larger than the potential error associated with their estimates, and therefore there is simply no safety issue here - hence many airlines do not even bother to impose a weight limit on carry-on bags, and most make little effort to reliably estimate passenger weight. Simply asking everyone for their DOB or even to self declare an estimated weight would dramatically increase the accuracy of their calculations - but it seems clear they don't think this is necessary or worth bothering with.