Virgin Australia applied for ADL/OOL-PER-DPS. Failed due International Terminal Requirement

[twinaisle]

VA need to start opening international lounges at various places.

Funniest thing I've heard this week. Y'all need to stop being delusional. It won't happen.

 

[Bagpuss]

So what does Gate 50 actually offer/do if one was a pax? Trying to recall it's position...is it not at end of T1 (away from exit entry points? )

As a pax if you are coming off an international flight you, it would be setup to exit into the international terminal and for a domestic flight you exit straight in the domestic terminal.

Therefore, you have to walk through the check-in areas to get to the domestic / international airside.

I've been on international flights which have used gate 50. Never seen it used for domestic.

To be honest it seems setup pretty well setup as on the domestic swing it's right next to a service deck (which I don't think I have ever seen staffed).

Gate 50 domestically is the first right hand-side gate when you walk from security / the lounge.

 

[HS-TQE]

I would assume it take a considerable amount of time setting up Gate 50 if VA took the 'swing' gate option on OOL/ADL-PER-DPS & v.v, assuming it meant opening up the walls for Domestic Use and closing it again for International use. They would assumably have to wait for 'through' passengers clearing immigration regardless if how many passengers are considered 'through' pax.

Whereas if VA just used the international gate (with the D sticker/ID system for the Domestic-only tag passengers to present at Immigration) for those via PER to DPS flights they are able to relatively do a turn/change of crew for the next leg reasonably quickly. The 'through' pax would assumedly re-clear security to re-enter the transit/gate area for the onward leg.

 

[Bagpuss]

I would assume it take a considerable amount of time setting up Gate 50 if VA took the 'swing' gate option on OOL/ADL-PER-DPS & v.v, assuming it meant opening up the walls for Domestic Use and closing it again for International use. They would assumably have to wait for 'through' passengers clearing immigration regardless if how many passengers are considered 'through' pax.

Whereas if VA just used the international gate (with the D sticker/ID system for the Domestic-only tag passengers to present at Immigration) for those via PER to DPS flights they are able to relatively do a turn/change of crew for the next leg reasonably quickly. The 'through' pax would assumedly re-clear security to re-enter the transit/gate area for the onward leg.

How it would work is that on arrival from the domestic location you would walk through the check-in area and then through immigration. If an international arrival the opposite.

You are not leaving the building, so it's not a major hassle other than going through security.

The benefit is the aircraft doesn't need to be towed.

You're not going to create a "sterile" area around the domestic side.

However, on T1 domestic when you exit and go down the escalators in that area is a door which goes straight through to the international security area.

VA lease terminals, if there's any cost for this is would already be in the agreement with Perth Airport for them to pay as it was 100% built and designed to work this way.

FYI, there's really nothing to the swing gate, the doors are already setup. You open the domestic door for domestic, and the international door for international. No different to opening any door with a door tag.

Perth T1 domestic opened less than 10 years ago so it's still very modern and in all honesty Perth Airport have gone a great job on T1 / T2 keeping them up-to-date, clean and modern.

Gate map : Perth Airport: Terminal 1 Domestic (T1 Domestic) ("Most of T1 International apron is not visible, due to aerobridge structures at Gates 49 and 50 (Bay 149 and Bay 150")

Gates 43 - 50 Domestic
Gates 50 - 56 International

Found this which is taken from the international side of gate 50 : Gate 50
Kind of second image you look through the open doors and can see the opposite doors for the domestic side.

More info. It's covered here too : Perth Airport Terminal 1 Domestic commences operations: 22 November 2015


"Terminal 1 Domestic on the first day of operations, Perth Airport – Sun 22 November 2015.
Gate 50A and 50B. 50B is designed to switch between domestic and international flights, with international passengers segregated behind a glass partition. There are two Virgin Australia customer service desks, one at each end of the terminal."

 

[Harrison_133]

I've been on international flights which have used gate 50. Never seen it used for domestic.

It is used for domestic, but not very often. Usually once a day at most during the first wave of departures.

The swing capabilities are also used for A320s coming off a domestic sector and heading out to Christmas Island.

I would assume it take a considerable amount of time setting up Gate 50 if VA took the 'swing' gate option on OOL/ADL-PER-DPS & v.v, assuming it meant opening up the walls for Domestic Use and closing it again for International use.

The Gate 50 set up in PER is a lot different to swing gates in ADL for example. The domestic and international channels have separated paths to enter the aerobridge. There's no moving of walls.

But that's all a moot point. If VA are awarded seats for these services, they'll have to be operated out of the international terminals as through services on the same flight number.

 

[Daver6]

Well I for.one, if the route with VA was competitive and at a decent time of the day would fly VA with lounge at least at PER without hesitation than Batik whom I would not touch with a barchpole. Friend.flew biz with them to KUL, said awful.

Here here. The only airline at the moment I'd fly to DPS from PER is J*. I'd take VA over J* any day of the week if they were flying the route. Would also mean a J option.

I see no way you could use the lounge, assuming you even got access. T1 int is the complete other side, you’d have to be very keen, and early, to do security, lounge, exit, security then immigration and board.

I think you're overestimating the size of PER T1 It would be at most a 5 minute walk to exit to the VA domestic lounge and get to the the start of international immigration.

 

[justinbrett]

I would assume it take a considerable amount of time setting up Gate 50 if VA took the 'swing' gate option on OOL/ADL-PER-DPS & v.v, assuming it meant opening up the walls for Domestic Use and closing it again for International use. They would assumably have to wait for 'through' passengers clearing immigration regardless if how many passengers are considered 'through' pax.

Whereas if VA just used the international gate (with the D sticker/ID system for the Domestic-only tag passengers to present at Immigration) for those via PER to DPS flights they are able to relatively do a turn/change of crew for the next leg reasonably quickly. The 'through' pax would assumedly re-clear security to re-enter the transit/gate area for the onward leg.

You cannot have a cabin with domestic pax (ie no D sticker) and international pax.

It's one or the other. And if they want rights to DPS, it's the latter.

 

[PERLHR]

So they can use gate 50 for international and let us all use the VA lounge ...simples!! Oh no there will be additional complications cos it's Perth and nothing is easy!!

 

[HS-TQE]

So they can use gate 50 for international and let us all use the VA lounge ...simples!! Oh no there will be additional complications cos it's Perth and nothing is easy!!

More than likely you've 'technically' left the country at the port of origin (ADL or OOL) should those flights be approved. "The VA Lounge is in Australia", likely requiring a 'immigration clearance' to enter it

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Too true, HS-TQE, seeing that VA does not have any lounges of their own in any int terminals anymore.
They could sell the tix/flights as a through PNR, but leave the ADL - PER as VAd, but who know, really.
They could also leave OOL - PER as dom too.
PER VARA T2 to T1 is just down or up that long walkway, if they use the T2 VARA, or right next door, if they use the T1 dom.
I have used the T1 dom at PER, but did do a very long sad sojourn down/up that long walkway to the end of T2/VARA, just to see what it was like.
Think 2.5 hrs transit in PER would sufffice.
But ADL - DPS already has its own one flight most/all days of the week, so wonder why do they still want to tag on the PER - DPS to the ADL - DPS one.
Not that I would want to go to DPS, what with all their scams and tricks, but if I did, I would not want to tag a few hours onto the long trip.
I would probably go ADL - SIN, and back track if I wanted to go to DPS.
---
Re: PERLHR reply above:
So they can use gate 50 for international and let us all use the VA lounge ...simples!! Oh no there will be additional complications cos it's Perth and nothing is easy!!
They certainly can use gate 50 at PER T1, which is closest to the PER VAd lounge, but then, how do you do that, when you (as above have mentioned, have already left Aust via smartgate?
They can't separate the VAd lounge into int and dom pax, even if they can open the glass sliding doors down that end, don't think they would tho.
---
But I see it as "no lounge access included," even for status pax or J pax, on the int sector.
To save Bain/new owners of VA $$$, without having to spend money running a lounge for int pax, or to share rev with a lounge op.
===

So what does Gate 50 actually offer/do if one was a pax? Trying to recall it's position...is it not at end of T1 (away from exit entry points? )

Have never seen it open, on my several VA flights into and out of T1 PER.

 

[Harrison_133]

But ADL - DPS already has its own one flight most/all days of the week, so wonder why do they still want to tag on the PER - DPS to the ADL - DPS one.

Because the existing bilateral agreement for flights between major ports (BNE/MEL/PER/SYD) and Indonesia is maxed out.

Operating these tag flights from ADL & OOL would enable them to launch a 2x daily PER-DPS service.

ADL-DPS and OOL-DPS is not the focus of this application. It's all about being able to resume the PER-DPS route.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

So what does Gate 50 actually offer/do if one was a pax? Trying to recall it's position...is it not at end of T1 (away from exit entry points? )

Have never seen it open, on my several VA flights into and out of T1 PER.

Because the existing bilateral agreement for flights between major ports (BNE/MEL/PER/SYD) and Indonesia is maxed out.

Operating these tag flights from ADL & OOL would enable them to launch a 2x daily PER-DPS service.

ADL-DPS and OOL-DPS is not the focus of this application. It's all about being able to resume the PER-DPS route.

Cunning!

 

[HS-TQE]

Though I do wonder why VA wanted to return to PER-DPS considering the very crowded route of LCCs and Value Carriers.

VA would pretty much offer no point of difference from the existing carriers (Value Carrier rival; Batik Air Indonesia already provides recliner J on PER-DPS). They (VA) would hope they'd get some favourable slot times from DPS for their "point of difference"

 

[elanshin]

Though I do wonder why VA wanted to return to PER-DPS considering the very crowded route of LCCs and Value Carriers.

VA would pretty much offer no point of difference from the existing carriers (Value Carrier rival; Batik Air Indonesia already provides recliner J on PER-DPS). They (VA) would hope they'd get some favourable slot times from DPS for their "point of difference"

Maybe its as simple as seeing QF wanting the whole pie and them just sticking their hand out. Wouldn't be surprised if it turns into another CNS <> HND where it wasn't the best thought out project, just that they didn't want to lose it.

 

[HS-TQE]

Maybe its as simple as seeing QF wanting the whole pie and them just sticking their hand out. Wouldn't be surprised if it turns into another CNS <> HND where it wasn't the best thought out project, just that they didn't want to lose it.

CNS-HND had the Queensland Government subsidies under the Attracting Aviation Investment Fund (AAIF) in partnership with CNS and NQ Tourism applied to the service in the name of (inbound) "Tourism for Queensland".

WA Government Airline subsidies won't apply for PER-DPS as thats largely a outbound route, so that view doesn't work for this case. Saying that VA could've easily used the application for a second SYD or BNE but chose PER for both.

 

[elanshin]

CNS-HND had the Queensland Government subsidies under the Attracting Aviation Investment Fund (AAIF) in partnership with CNS and NQ Tourism applied to the service in the name of (inbound) "Tourism for Queensland".

WA Government Airline subsidies won't apply for PER-DPS as thats largely a outbound route, so that view doesn't work for this case. Saying that VA could've easily used the application for a second SYD or BNE but chose PER for both.

Sorry what i meant by the CNS - HND route was that it feels more like VA wanted to hold the slot and found a solution for it but wasn't anywhere near ideal. (I imagine the slot would go to QF if VA didnt use it).

This might be another case where they just don't want QF to take all the slots and found some sort of routing that works on paper.

 

[Harrison_133]

Though I do wonder why VA wanted to return to PER-DPS considering the very crowded route of LCCs and Value Carriers.

VA has been building up Bali for a while. Increasing MEL-DPS to 2 daily, resuming ADL-DPS (which operated 2 daily over the summer), and the launch of OOL-DPS. They've stated previously the intention to grow short-haul international, PER-DPS is a glaring hole in their network and fits with this.

VA would pretty much offer no point of difference from the existing carriers (Value Carrier rival; Batik Air Indonesia already provides recliner J on PER-DPS). They (VA) would hope they'd get some favourable slot times from DPS for their "point of difference"

I know you reference Batik in relation to VA a lot, but I think you're overstating the success of Batik in the Australian market. VA, QF and JQ all consistently achieve load factors in the 80s and 90s, but the Indonesian carriers pale in comparison, hovering in the 60s. The only Indonesian carrier to buck the trend is Air Asia, but they're long established in the market.

Batik might have flooded the market with capacity, but that isn't a marker of success. They have inconsistent product and service offerings across the Indonesian and Malaysian subsidiaries, and chop and change schedules at the drop of a hat. Batik Indonesia can't even operate DPS-MEL/SYD consistently throughout the year. They cut the flights during slow periods without notice, and shift passengers onto Batik Malaysia instead.

Point is, there is still a preference for Australian carriers to Bali, and with the Velocity FF base, PER-DPS is not a silly addition for VA to make.

 

[Bagpuss]

So they can use gate 50 for international and let us all use the VA lounge ...simples!! Oh no there will be additional complications cos it's Perth and nothing is easy!!

Actually they could.

The T1 lounge is used for T2 departures.

You would have checked-in already. It's just a short walk and go through security again (once domestically, then internationally).

(I think this is similar to Melbourne, though more of a trek)

 

[Daver6]

Though I do wonder why VA wanted to return to PER-DPS considering the very crowded route of LCCs and Value Carriers.

VA would pretty much offer no point of difference from the existing carriers (Value Carrier rival; Batik Air Indonesia already provides recliner J on PER-DPS). They (VA) would hope they'd get some favourable slot times from DPS for their "point of difference"

The main differentiator is safety! You can fly dodgy brothers LCC or ones with a half decent safety record. I'm quite fond of living personally.

 

[HS-TQE]

A current VA GM has outlined in a recent submission of VA using staff/crew living in Australia for its flights to Bali, whereas JQ uses foreign crew. Related to also to point out, VA 1.0 also previously used foreign crews on their New Zealand and Pacific Islands flights, most of that crew employed back in the Pacific Blue days.

Virgin attacks Qantas’ use of overseas crew in Bali row

Todd Reynolds, a Virgin GM, said in a letter to the IASC that Jetstar “relies heavily on cabin crews based in Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore, and New Zealand”.

australianaviation.com.au