Virgin getting very HEAVY re completed credit card refunds. Sad to see.

[glasszon]

Qantas are restricting redemptions as well. Protecting panic shoppers from themselves.

Coles have pretty much stopped selling Coles gift cards...

I thought Coles stopped selling gift cards is due to the opposite problem: Coles has far too much demand right now and there's simply no need to offer goods at discount. It's similar to why both Woolworths and Coles temporarily suspended their weekly catalogue.

 

[woodborer]

I thought Coles stopped selling gift cards is due to the opposite problem: Coles has far too much demand right now and there's simply no need to offer goods at discount. It's similar to why both Woolworths and Coles temporarily suspended their weekly catalogue.

Whatever the reason for restricting them, Velocity can't get any more than they already have. So, they are rationing. And so is Qantas.

 

[ozstamps]

Gift cards are MEGA profitable for retailers.

The "breakage" rate - i.e. the % that never get used, is predicably high. Lost or tossed away etc.

Profitable if COLES sell them direct that is.

To be selling $ Millions and expecting Virgin to pay you in 60 days etc .. not so good.

 

[odysseus]

That's certainly the tack VA is taking, but legally there's actually a bit more nuance to it than that. Yes, government restrictions have led to a drop in demand and thus airlines making the commercial decision to reduce schedules. However, the government is not preventing airlines from operating. This is an important distinction when it comes to whether a passengers is entitled to a cash refund under Australian Consumer Law. If the government is preventing the airline from operating, no refund is due. If the airline is making a commercial not to operate, then claiming "government restrictions" as reason to deny the refund is less likely to fly. There's also some relevance here as to whether government's "guidance" and "advice" not to travel can really be called a "restriction" at all. (If you go to the airport and board a flight, will you actually be denied boarding because of "the law"? If no, is it even a restriction?)

It may seem semantical but when it comes to the law, those matter. Based on the history of consumer law legal cases and examples, I don't think VA would get away with their current argument. But things have changed and it's not 100% cut and dry here. There's an argument to be made, and VA has made it clear they're going to make it and hope that the uniqueness of the circumstances will render it more successful than it almost certainly would (not) have been two months ago.

You've glossed over/ignored certain elements. Government restrictions have not just caused a drop in demand, but they have prevented people travelling. Most states and even territories do not permit travellers to enter from another state/territory. That is not just "guidance" or "advice" but an actual restriction.

As for the legal assessment, the ACCC also have their own legal team, and have put their own assessment on their web site. As they have a lot of familiarity with interpreting Australian Consumer Law, I think their legal assessment is reasonable and has merit and should not be ignored or disregarded.

 

[Jack_OC]

I'm still waiting on a refund for flights I cancelled in February (before any restrictions in Aus, and before VA started cancelling services). I had a work trip scheduled for April, which was cancelled due to restrictions imposed by clients overseas. Since it was clearly not VA's fault, I didn't expect or ask for any more than the fare conditions allowed - which was a refund of the fare ($8k) minus a $600 cancellation fee. I haven't got anything yet though, and this point I assume I won't ever get the money back. This fare was paid by employer so not a big deal to me personally, but I have also requested Travel Bank credits for a couple of personal trips (domestic), and not received those credits either. I can't say this looks good for VA.

FWIW, even though I already knew from personal experience that VA is apparently not providing refunds right now, regardless of circumstances, I'm quite shocked that they are going so far as to threaten people who request chargebacks. That's really not behaviour consistent with a business that expects to still have customers when this is all over.

 

[Vic]

Not OP, but the tldr version is VA is threatening its Platinum customers with collection for credit card chargeback on a flight that was cancelled.

Except they're not threading collection of fund, as that is conditional on the chargeback being in favour of the customer. In which case the bank agrees to give the customer back their money, and Virgin then need to chase the bank to collect the funds - an action that will go nowhere.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I'm still waiting on a refund for flights I cancelled in February (before any restrictions in Aus, and before VA started cancelling services). I had a work trip scheduled for April, which was cancelled due to restrictions imposed by clients overseas. Since it was clearly not VA's fault, I didn't expect or ask for any more than the fare conditions allowed - which was a refund of the fare ($8k) minus a $600 cancellation fee. I haven't got anything yet though, and this point I assume I won't ever get the money back. This fare was paid by employer so not a big deal to me personally, but I have also requested Travel Bank credits for a couple of personal trips (domestic), and not received those credits either. I can't say this looks good for VA.

FWIW, even though I already knew from personal experience that VA is apparently not providing refunds right now, regardless of circumstances, I'm quite shocked that they are going so far as to threaten people who request chargebacks. That's really not behaviour consistent with a business that expects to still have customers when this is all over.

In your situation I'd give them a call, wait times are a fair bit less now and you are definitely owed the refund for the cancelled refundable fare and travel bank for the others.

 

[bigbadbyrnes]

I've done some searching and even phoned Amex trying to get an understanding of chargeback T&Cs. I want to understand exactly what they are and when they can/can't be used.

Amex were disappointing on providing info RE chargebacks/raising disputes. The email they sent following the phone call meant to link to dispute info actually just linked to my account summary page. So I've got nothing.

A seperate dept. dealing with travel insurance was excellent providing details. Bad news; any flights affected by COVID19 are blanket excluded by the policy, although they are assessing on a 'case by case basis'. Any flights which can't be taken due to insolvency are also excluded. So chargeback seems the only option.

Doing a chargeback is my only option to recover the flights I have coming up, like OP. Is there a 101 on this? I want to understand exactly what my options are (I suppose many people in the same boat).
- Can a chargeback be lodged before they go bust?
- Can a chargeback be lodged after they go bust?
Given that chargebacks need to be raised within so many (60? 120?) days of the original charge,
- Can you chargeback a flight before it's cancelled/changed officially or do you need to wait?
- Can a flight be chargebacked booked to USA in November?

Sidenote: if there were no options and I was legally able to, I would actually just change the flights to weekends and take them as if they were status runs, just to get the points from taking them to cash them out/transfer them to SQ so at least its something.

 

[ozstamps]

FWIW, even though I already knew from personal experience that VA is apparently not providing refunds right now, regardless of circumstances, I'm quite shocked that they are going so far as to threaten people who request chargebacks. That's really not behaviour consistent with a business that expects to still have customers when this is all over.

Virgin look to be a panic stricken basket case right now sadly - sending out confusing Status level emails a Chimp woud have worded better, and now limiting gift card purchases, which was the Canary In The Coalmine to me.

Threatening action against Platinums who sought and got a refund as Virgin cancelled domestic flights, way before any government restrictions, smacks of total desperation.

They will get no extra money doing this - the refund is all a done deal - it will just seriously p!ss off folks who otherwise would have stuck with whatever emerges at the other end of this horrible sausage machine.

 

[mickismick]

As you are not protected by VA's T&C's or by the ACCC, and as unauthorised chargebacks are illegal, VA is within their rights to go to collections. You've committed what is known as chargeback fraud and have encouraged others here to do the same.

VA are within their rights to offer you a voucher as a form of refund. Whether you like that or not, and whether you think it's worthless or not doesn't make your so-called chargeback fraud any less illegal a breach of the contract you entered when you purchased the ticket.

Edit: crossed out the parts where I was incorrect. Added correction in italics.

 

[ozstamps]

Do not give up your day job to become a lawyer. You would last 10 minutes I'd suspect. Armchair lawyers mostly do.

Nothing "Illegal" about asking for a refund for a service never supplied. That is 'highly offensive and defamatory to me, and so is calling it ''Fraud''.

"I purchased a service the supplier chose not to deliver." Which was 100% correct and honest.

Virgin cancelled my domestic flights and did not bother to tell me. Or even offer a re-route. NADA. THEY cancelled them, not me.

Simple as that. I requested a full refund, and got it same day, and it shows on my statement. Virgin gleefully charge us all extra to use cards, and this is the downside - the credit cards stand behind cardholders at such times.

Thank goodness.

 

[Jack_OC]

As you are not protected by VA's T&C's or by the ACCC, and as unauthorised chargebacks are illegal, VA is within their rights to go to collections. You've committed chargeback fraud and have encouraged others here to do the same.

VA are within their rights to offer you a voucher as a form of refund. Whether you like that or not, and whether you think it's worthless or not doesn't make your chargeback fraud any less illegal.

Genuine questions:
1. What do you mean by "unauthorised chargebacks"? Unathorised by the merchant (VA in this case)? Surely all chargebacks are unauthorised by the merchant?

2. What is the basis for your assertions that chargebacks in these circumstances are "fraud" and/or "illegal"?

 

[Bell21]

My take on this is VA aren't required to provide us with refunds as per ACCC conditions (for flights cancelled due to covid) --- as much as I hate to say it since I'm directly affected --- and a chargeback is therefore basically a v slight gamble that your credit card provider will reimburse u without repercussions from VA (although I'm not sure what these would be - I don't know if they have capacity to affect VFF program, collections etc) --- I also have travel insurance option thanks to plat card.

 

[TheInsider]

My take on this is VA aren't required to provide us with refunds as per ACCC conditions (for flights cancelled due to covid) --- as much as I hate to say it since I'm directly affected --- and a chargeback is therefore basically a v slight gamble that your credit card provider will reimburse u without repercussions from VA (although I'm not sure what these would be - I don't know if they have capacity to affect VFF program, collections etc) --- I also have travel insurance option thanks to plat card.

More people do a chargeback, the more money VA loses (merchants charge the company for every charge-back initiated)

 

[Bell21]

Genuine questions:
1. What do you mean by "unauthorised chargebacks"? Unathorised by the merchant (VA in this case)? Surely all chargebacks are unauthorised by the merchant?

2. What is the basis for your assertions that chargebacks in these circumstances are "fraud" and/or "illegal"?

Yes I can't see the chargeback as fraud or illegal - unless others can show me how - just an attempt by a customer to recoup $ which may or may not succeed

Post automatically merged: Apr 3, 2020

More people do a chargeback, the more money VA loses (merchants charge the company for every charge-back initiated)

Correct!

 

[Jack_OC]

Yes I can't see the chargeback as fraud or illegal - unless others can show me how - just an attempt by a customer to recoup $ which may or may not succeed

Yes. I just checked the Citibank T&Cs. On their chargeback form, one of the options is as follows:

Non-receipt of Goods OR Services Not Rendered
Goods/Services for the transaction were not provided due to the inability/unwillingness of the merchant. Goods/Services were to be provided on _________________. I have attempted to resolve this dispute with the merchant and/or merchant’s liquidator .

I can't see how anyone could suggest someone would be acting "fraudulently" or "illegally" if they initiated a chargeback request based on the criteria above, in a scenario where they had paid for a flight that VA cancelled. Note it covers both inability and unwillingness of the merchant.

 

[p--and--t]

As you are not protected by VA's T&C's or by the ACCC, and as unauthorised chargebacks are illegal, VA is within their rights to go to collections. You've committed chargeback fraud and have encouraged others here to do the same.

VA are within their rights to offer you a voucher as a form of refund. Whether you like that or not, and whether you think it's worthless or not doesn't make your chargeback fraud any less illegal.

There is no such thing as an "unauthorised" charge-back. All charge-backs have to be authorised by the card issuer.

The bank/card issuer authorises an initial return of the funds provisionally and then gives the vendor a chance to explain or refute.

If the vendor does not dispute the refund with x days (I think it is around 30 days - probably varies depending on card type/bank) you keep the money.

If the vendor disputes & provides an acceptable reason to the card issuer why the charge-back should not occur then the card issuer will rescind the refund. (at least that is the process used by ANZ and I presume throughout the banking industry)

If VA had responded with a valid reason for the funds not to be refunded under the terms of the merchant agreement then the op would not have received and retained his refund.

No fraud or illegality involved whatsoever.

 

[serfty]

Whether you like that or not, and whether you think it's worthless or not doesn't make your chargeback fraud any less illegal.

I really doubt the OP has done anything illegal.

- Service paid for via Credit Card,
- Service not delivered,
- Service Provider approached for reimbursement,
- Service Provider refused approach,
- Service Provider's refusal instigated chargeback in line with Credit Card provider's terms
- Service Provider expressed dissatisfaction with Customer instigated resolution.

None of that is illegal in Australian Law.

 

[hydrabyss]

I really doubt the OP has done anything illegal.

- Service paid for via Credit Card,
- Service not delivered,
- Service Provider approached for reimbursement,
- Service Provider refused approach,
- Service Provider's refusal instigated chargeback in line with Credit Card provider's terms
- Service Provider expressed dissatisfaction with Customer instigated resolution.

None of that is illegal in Australian Law.

I never read the ticket T & C's so there may be something in there regarding refunds.

Things might also change in the current climate.

 

[mickismick]

VA issuing credits as a form of refund due to the COVID19 outbreak is acceptable per the agreement you entered with them when you purchased the ticket.

Advice from the ACCC on COVID19 is that:

If your travel is cancelled the ACCC expects that you will receive a refund or other remedy, such as a credit note or voucher, in most circumstances.
[...]
If you had a right to a refund under these terms and conditions at the time you purchased your ticket, businesses are not permitted to change the terms at a later time to deny you a refund.

Did you have the right to a refund under the original terms and conditions of your ticket? If so, great! Charge-back it is. If not, VA is within their rights to issue a travel voucher.

They are within their rights to hold you to the original contact regarding refunds. They are within their rights to send the case to collections if you proceed with the charge-back.

Here's the advice from ACCC for COVID19:

Advice on event and travel cancellations due to COVID-19

The ACCC has issued advice for consumers and businesses on their rights and obligations if events, flights or travel services are cancelled due to the coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19), or if people wish to cancel their travel plans.

www.accc.gov.au

COVID-19 (coronavirus) information for consumers

English and translated into Arabic لعربية, Chinese simplified 简体中文, Chinese traditional 繁體中文, Greek Ελληνικά, Hindi हिन्दी, Italian Italiano, Korean 한국어, Macedonian македонски, Punjabi पंजाबी, Spanish Español, Turkish | Türkçe, Vietnamese Tiếng Việt.

www.accc.gov.au

Maybe your best bet would have been to contact VA to discuss your options instead of going straight to a charge-back. If you didn't like those options, then seeking advice from the ACA would have been your next step.

But hey, you're right. I'm not a lawyer and am only interpreting the communications that ACCC are sending out from my limited, non-lawyer mind. And by the sounds of it, you're an internet armchair lawyer yourself.

At the end of the day, if I'm wrong, it's just a post on the internet. If you're wrong, then you'll be dealing with collections. I hear that can be a whole lot of fun.