Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

[RooFlyer]

Could all costings etc please have a separate line for, or exclude, taxpayer subsidies in the capital cost, RECs,tariffs etc and then analyse 'break even' point.

 

[RAM]

Off the cuff pricing for a battery / grid interactive controller here is about $8000. This may include slightly higher installation costs to mitigate the "rural 480" grid connection as installed in WA and batteries are extra.

Can we have more examples of existing installations?

Just wandering

Fred

There are a few pretty legit sites you can look at covering costs/benefits/pitfalls (aka 'balanced') for PV & batteries etc.

• Home : Renew Economy
• https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sa-energy-crisis-myth-peddled-liars/ (another which has been around for some years and encourages you to support it by getting quotes if you get any more panels etc) see this post for example - https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/redflow-battery-issues-mb0008/

You can find a lot more by clicking occasionally on the links at the very bottom of the reneweconomy pages...

If you feel so inclined you can send a question to reneweconomy and the guy often will respond in copious detail to you (&/or provide a list of links that will provide all the material/answers you need).


And a site which is shameless pitch for your business and maintenance... is from solaranalytics.com.au but it may be worth you filling out their analysis of how your panels are performing - it is a very good algorithm used (you need to input lots of data not pages but quite some detail which hopefully you've kept). Being a cynic (pragmatist) I tried it out and it gave a 100% legit answer for the 4 year analysis of our panels. Which just happened to match my own much more detailed (daily) analysis to within 0.3%.

 

[RAM]

Could all costings etc please have a separate line for, or exclude, taxpayer subsidies in the capital cost, RECs,tariffs etc and then analyse 'break even' point.

You should have a read of this article as it sets out a clear explanation complete with figures vs the rest of world for what we receive vs pay.

Comes down to power companies make higher profits by not avoiding blackouts.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sa-energy-crisis-myth-peddled-liars/

 

[drron]

Sorry RAM but if you follow the links provided in that peddled-liars link you get to the Finkel report.In the body of that link is this-

The Finkel report implies that Australia’s grid is no longer fit for purpose, saying it is antiquated and does not have the policies and market design that would encourage the technology solutions that already exist for high levels of wind and solar

.
The Germans have spent billions of Euro upgrading their grid for renewables.We have basically spent zilch.It should have been done in SA before increasing the renewable input.
Also in your link there is no mention of other serious blackout episodes such as November 2015 in South Australia when there was no storm activity because there was no wind.The Hazelwood connector kept working.If it wasn't for the Augusta coal fired power station still operating you may very well have had a state wide blackout then.

 

[RAM]

.The Germans have spent billions of Euro upgrading their grid for renewables.We have basically spent zilch.It should have been done in SA before increasing the renewable input.
Also in your link there is no mention of other serious blackout episodes such as November 2015 in South Australia when there was no storm activity because there was no wind.The Hazelwood connector kept working.If it wasn't for the Augusta coal fired power station still operating you may very well have had a state wide blackout then.

Yes - there you are - we agree.

The transmission operators aka "the Grid" and the regulators have not done their jobs. The lack of spending to modernise the grid appears to fly in the face of the huge increase in the amount consumers pay for 'transmission' capex spending aka the daily access fee.

The regulator had never looked into whether there should any changes made for the connection of wind (or PV) farms onto the grid. Not asked one overseas operator - not one!

Either they assumed it did not matter or worse never even considered whether it mattered. Post the blackout late last year, the question was asked, several countries provided the tech info instantly and the changes were made by the wind farms so that in Feb - there was no problem.

I am not sure how correct your statement about the Germans spending billions upgrading their grid for renewables - any links on that?

The Nov 2015 blackout were due to the interconnector FAILING actually - or are you talking about a different Nov 2015 series of blackouts?

Power blackouts across South Australia after electricity interconnector fails - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[h=1]Power blackouts across South Australia after electricity interconnector fails[/h] Updated 2 Nov 2015, 11:59am

A wide area of South Australia was plunged into darkness overnight when an interstate power supply connector failed.
Just after 10:00pm on Sunday, parts of Adelaide, the Barossa Valley, Port Pirie and the state's west coast region lost electricity supply.
The interconnector from Victoria failed and South Australia was disconnected from the national electricity grid.

 

[drron]

The point is the Interconnector "failed"on both occasions because it was doing what it had to when faced with a very large drop in power output from South Australian power generation and that large fall on both occasions was from wind generation.

 

[RAM]

The point is the Interconnector "failed"on both occasions because it was doing what it had to when faced with a very large drop in power output from South Australian power generation and that large fall on both occasions was from wind generation.

No, the November 2015 was nothing to do with wind power in SA, in fact it was wind power that kept a lot of homes going as was stated in (some) reports at the time. There was a known problem with the Vic inter-connector which had been warned about for some weeks. Wind power helped to minimise the size of the black-outs NOT cause them.

Sorry but the fall was nothing to do with wind in both 2015 and 2017.

Nov 2015 incident totally due to known issues with the inter-connector:

About 110,000 homes were affected by the load shedding from Victoria, which started about 10.20pm on Sunday night.

"In this case, the loss of capacity from Victoria resulted in automatic load shedding to avoid wider issues."

But last night’s blackout “caught everyone by surprise”, despite the fact Victoria had issued a low level risk notice for a power outage for the past seven weeks.

When the Victorian system shut down, 160 megawatts of energy was lost.
According to data from the National Electricity Market Operator, AEMO, wind power output was at 221 megawatts at the time of the interconnector outage, and continued at around these levels for the next few hours.

A MAJOR blackout across the state because of a fault at a substation in the South-East could happen again, the energy regulator has warned.

According to the Australian Energy Market Operator, SA experienced a “separation event” and was separated from the national electricity market.

Just like the during early 2017 issue - SA's wind power helped offset to some degree the effects of the power lost elsewhere. Also the ICs did not fail in Feb 2017.


And finally from the official report: Clearly spells out it was inter-connector 1 and IC 2 was under-going maintenance at the time aka unavailable.

This report details AEMO’s review of a power system operating incident that occurred on Sunday 1 November 2015 at the South East Substation (SESS) in South Australia (SA). At the time of the incident, the South East – Heywood No.2 275 kV transmission line (Line 2) was out of service.

This incident involved:
1. The trip of the South East – Heywood No.1 275 kV transmission line (Line 1), that resulted in the SA power system partially separating1 (being islanded) from the interconnected power system.
2. The loss of 160 MW of customer load and 11 MW of generation.
3. Frequency control problems in operating the islanded SA power system

ElectraNet found that Line 1 tripped due to an incompatible protection relay configuration. The protection relay had been recently installed as part of the works associated with the SESS upgrade. The line tripped when an automated test signal was unexpectedly interpreted by the new relay as a trip signal. The routine17 test signal was transmitted from Heywood Terminal Station (HYTS) to verify the integrity of a protection telecommunication channel between HYTS and SESS. As a result, the relay opened CBs 6603 and 8029 at SESS, which in turn off-loaded Line 1.

ElectraNet has reprogrammed the newly installed protection relays to prevent a reoccurrence of the trip.

So Electranet incorrectly set up a newly installed protection relay - nothing to do with wind just good old human error by the transmission authority!

At least the Nov 2015 reason was found - the reason for Feb 2017 is still unknown as the official report states that nobody - neither the power plant operator nor the regulator can explain why Pelican Point shut down completely after the incident at the unrelated gas generation station. Certainly saw Engie make mega profits out of Hazelwood for a period though!

 

[drron]

You cant have it both ways RAM.
That wind power wasn't responsible for the September blackout because wind power shut down because of incorrect settings in response to the grid problems.
But the Interconnector was responsible in November because of incorrect settings.
Both events were precede by drops in the production of power by wind generators.

From the AEMO report on Sept blackouts-

The predicted weather front moved through SA on the afternoon of Wednesday 28 September 2016, including high winds, thunderstorms, lightning strikes, hail, and heavy rainfall.
The weather resulted in multiple transmission system faults. In the short time between 16:16 and 16:18, system faults included the loss of three major 275 kV transmission lines north of Adelaide.
Generation initially rode through the faults, but at 16:18, following an extensive number of faults in a short period, 315 MW of wind generation disconnected (one group at 16:18:09, a second group at 16:18:15), also affecting the region north of Adelaide.
The uncontrolled reduction in generation resulted in increased flow on the main Victorian interconnector (Heywood) to make up the deficit.
This resulted in the Heywood Interconnector overloading. To avoid damage to the interconnector, the automatic-protection mechanism activated, tripping the interconnector. In this event, this resulted in the remaining customer load and electricity generation in SA being lost (referred to as a Black System).

https://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/-/media/BE174B1732CB4B3ABB74BD507664B270.ashx

And taken from AEMO's publicly available power generation charts for 1/11/15



The blackout was at 10pm.Note at 6pm wind was supplying 700Mw.At time of blackout 160Mw and kept dropping.The difference between the November and September blackouts was that in November the Port Augusta power station producing over 400Mw was still operating but by the September it had been closed.So 110000 homes blacked out in November,the whole state in September.

 

[wandering_fred]

Unfortunately a HV line (ie connector) from WA to SA is considering "un-economic".
Wind (at least so far) has been found to be reliable in WA. Enough so that the state owned generators have used it in place of upgrading distribution lines.

Is there data available on the efficiency of the existing wind farms? Rating versus actual daily generation (and highlighting the amount of time with no generation).

Just wandering

Fred

 

[RAM]

You cant have it both ways RAM.
That wind power wasn't responsible for the September blackout because wind power shut down because of incorrect settings in response to the grid problems.
But the Interconnector was responsible in November because of incorrect settings.
Both events were precede by drops in the production of power by wind generators.

drron - you stated that the Nov 2015 and 2017 events were due to wind.

It is a fact that neither were due to wind.

Both official reports state that.

Showing that the wind had its normal production profile on the day in Nov 2015 does not change the fact that the grid operator set-up a replacement relay on Interconnector #1 incorrectly and it caused the outage. At the same time IC #2 was shut down for 'maintenance'. The amount of wind power produced in the 30 minute period leading up to the outage and immediately afterwards was quite consistent NOT falling.

A minor component of the Sept 2016 shutdown was due to incorrect settings - settings which are the responsibility of the grid operator to police/control. The 100% reason of the Nov 2015 was 'incorrect settings' that were 100% due to the grid operator making a mistake. Do you see a pattern here?

1 + 1 does not make 3.

The 2017 event (as your OP claimed as well) was not due to wind but an explosion at one gas operator's sub-station and strangely a to-this-day still unexplainable (finger on button perhaps?) outage within seconds at Pelican Point. Nothing to do with wind.

The late 2016 wild weather, predicted days in advance yet the grid operator took no steps (yet again as the official report makes clear) to ensure that all generators were set-up to handle the expected spikes this would cause. It turned out that Australia was the only country in the world with wind power that HAD NOT ensured the settings were correct for wind farms (as well as for PV btw).

Asleep at the wheel seems to be an apt description - and it refers to both the regulator, grid operator and wind farm operators. Lack of expertise is unforgivable given the amount the community is being charged for the transmission fees.

Transmission towers being brought down were the main cause of the extended blackouts then not short term losses due to the settings for the wind farm grid connections.

 

[Moody]

Alternative facts are becoming very popular with Trump's Despicables .... Bananaby Joyce was spewing them out like cherry stones last night.

 

[wandering_fred]

An alternative look at solar and wind power - memories of my mother....

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[RAM]

Unfortunately a HV line (ie connector) from WA to SA is considering "un-economic".
Wind (at least so far) has been found to be reliable in WA. Enough so that the state owned generators have used it in place of upgrading distribution lines.

Is there data available on the efficiency of the existing wind farms? Rating versus actual daily generation (and highlighting the amount of time with no generation).

Just wandering

Fred

The financing side of the fence use the same ratios/% as shown below:


The utility PV are assumed to be at minimum single axis tracking set-ups vs the fixed to the roof style on homes.

In our case, after nearly 4 years we are tracking at close to 110% of the expected figure for Sydney roof fixed panels. What is virtually NEVER mentioned by any sales pitch is that installing say 3KW of panels will virtually never see you generate 3KW of energy other than possibly on the very first day if no clouds and it is in the August to October period.

Due to various causes of power loss (length of cabling, quality of cabling, loss through inverter etc) to achieve 90% of rated capacity in good conditions is a good outcome.

The exception being on a day with some light rain clouds and the sun shining through gets magnified in the same way as with a magnifyng glass - our panels in the first year a few times we got nearly 110% of rated capacity for 60-90 seconds or so...

 

[whatmeworry]

Federal Government blocks wind turbine plan for Lord Howe Island despite high support for it.

Mr Murray said the only survey done to gauge locals' opinion had suggested that 92 per cent of them supported the plan.
"The two wind turbines would save us consuming something like 167,000 litres of diesel per year," he said.

"Surely if you were talking about visual impact on a World Heritage site, you would have to wonder why the two wind turbines would be struck down," he said.
"Whereas the Abbot Point coal loading facility in the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage [area] would be approved?
"We'd have to ask where is the consistency?"

As a World Heritage-listed site, it had to be approved by Federal Environment Minister Josh Frydenberg.
But he has rejected the proposal, which he said would "have clearly unacceptable impacts".
A spokesman for Mr Fydenberg said the "Government considered the proposed wind turbines would create a considerable, intrusive visual impact".

Lord Howe Island's plan for renewable energy rejected over 'visual impact' of wind turbines - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Warks]

Couldn't find the right spot for this story but this looks okay. It's about power anyway.
Electricity price rises: Small business brace for crippling hit

Surely they can't be serious? Those cost increases aren't subject to any regulation whatsoever?

It would certainly push companies towards covering their rooftops with solar and installing battery banks. That would be a longer term solution if the technology is up to speed. But is it yet?

 

[cove]

Warks solar is ready for businesses that operate mostly in sunlight hours. We did 6 warehouses just over 3 years ago.

 

[whatmeworry]

SA Government annouces that Tesla will make the world's largest biggest battery to supplement their electricity grid.

South Australia has announced Elon Musk's Tesla as the principal builder of the world's largest lithium ion battery to expand the state's renewable energy supply.


The mega-project will be built in conjunction with French renewable energy firm Neoen and paired with Neoen's existing Hornsdale Wind Farm near Jamestown, north of Adelaide.
SA Premier Jay Weatherill said the "extraordinary collaboration" would deliver a grid-scale battery that would "stabilise the South Australian network as well as putting downward pressure on prices".

South Australia announces Tesla as backer of world's largest battery

 

[Moody]

SA Government annouces that Tesla will make the world's largest biggest battery to supplement their electricity grid.



South Australia announces Tesla as backer of world's largest battery

How does the theoretical efficiency of this storage compare to hydroelectric pumping/powerstations such as they have in the Kangaroo Valley?

 

[RooFlyer]

129 MW hours of capacity. I've been trying to find out the energy consumption of Adelaide during various times of the day and year without success, but I reckon 129MWh would supply Adelaide for about an hour during daytime.

Whacko.

Another great cost deposited at the feet of the renewable energy deity by a government who won't - politically can't - admit they got the renewable energy mix horribly wrong. The battery is being hitched to a wind farm ... when the wind blows, the battery will charge. When it doesn't, the battery will discharge. If the wind doesn't blow again in a few hours (remembering time to re-charge) it will be a lithium-ion white elephant.

And about the "We'll build it in 100 days or its free" guarantee. What does that mean? Does it include commissioning? What do the component vendors say (they will want to test each component in sequence - you don't just flip a big 'on' switch). What if the wind isn't blowing when its finished? Does the guarantee include that it will ... you know ... work?

Oh, and if you think all is well in Tesla-battery-land:

At a press conference in Adelaide, the South Australian Premier’s office warned journalists not to ask Mr Musk any questions relating to issues other than energy, saying special guests “may leave the stage”.
After making media wait for 90 minutes for the event, reporters were allowed to ask questions in a question-and-answer format tightly-controlled by Mr Weatherill.

Mr Musk has had a rough week as the head of Tesla. The company’s shares have dropped almost 20 per cent since late June, and late last week it announced it would not be able to produce as many electric cars as anticipated due to a battery production shortages.

... but all is obviously well in the People's Republic of Weatherill.

 

[Pushka]

Why does SA always have to have 'the biggest'. We did similar with the now idle desal plant, built one of the most expensive buildings in the world and now the biggest electricity bank. Wacko indeed and the same government responsible for it all. More people voted for the opposition last election thanks to electoral boundaries. That has now been fixed. Just wish the opposition presented as a real threat.