Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

[Moody]

Could we please re-label this topic to "Flatulence and the Fake News Grid", before the ACCC pings us for false advertising. Cheers.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

I solved power outage problems on Gold Coast some years ago by installing a generator that starts when the mains drops
out. Funny thing is that we have not had a significant power outage since the generator was installed !

 

[Pushka]

I solved power outage problems on Gold Coast some years ago by installing a generator that starts when the mains drops
out. Funny thing is that we have not had a significant power outage since the generator was installed !

I can't imagine the complaints of noise in Adelaide if we did as the government suggests we do and each buy generators. A report released last year suggested exactly that. It created so much furore that it seems to have been put in a drawer somewhere and forgotten.

 

[mannej]

Could we please re-label this topic to "Flatulence and the Fake News Grid", before the ACCC pings us for false advertising. Cheers.

So an attack on those with a differing view without much to add in terms of constructive discussion...

 

[Quickstatus]

AEMO now saying that wind cannot be relied on to provide more than 5% of installed capacity on demand.

Thats the problem with wind. It can only provide energy when it is able which is very different to supplying energy to meet demand.

now AEMO wants to know if there is anyone with diesel generators who can act as a backup. Haha dirty diesel coming to save a renewable!! The irony is exquisite!!

 

[Pushka]

But that irony is totally/deliberately ignored here in SA where the reversion to 'dirty' power supplies is spruiked by the Govt as a great new plan and investment.

 

[Quickstatus]

It was entirely predictable.

Wind produces energy when the wind blows. Fantastic but that is not necessarily the same time as when people want electricity. In the meantime the market is so distorted that no bus News in their right mind will invest in reliable power they will just chase the profits - causing further unreliability and distortion. The Tesla battery is no more than just a mechanism to try to reverse some of that distortion but would it have been better to do it right from the start?

 

[drron]

And in May 2016 the Northern power station at Port Augusta closed.520MW of reliable baseload lost.It is reported that Alinta offered the station to the Government on a walkin/walkout basis or for reports of between $23-30 million keeping it open until the end of 2018.Instead they have committed $360 million to a 250MW gas fired station and at least $150 million to the Tesla battery-125MW but only for 7 hours.

 

[Pushka]

It was entirely predictable.

Wind produces energy when the wind blows. Fantastic but that is not necessarily the same time as when people want electricity. In the meantime the market is so distorted that no bus News in their right mind will invest in reliable power they will just chase the profits - causing further unreliability and distortion. The Tesla battery is no more than just a mechanism to try to reverse some of that distortion but would it have been better to do it right from the start?

Of course it was. But once a brain turns completely green there's no rhyme nor reason.

 

[wandering_fred]

Wind produces energy when the wind blows.

I'm beginning to be skeptical of that after looking at the Western Australia AEMO wind generation page for a few weeks. I think the issue is that Synergy owns the Albany wind farm.

Why do I have this suspicion? The Denmark wind farm (50km west of the Albany farm) is privately owned and produces maximum power almost non-stop. At the much the same time, the Albany farm is producing well under 50% (or less). ????? My explanation is that as long as the distribution line from Perth is not approaching its capacity limits, it is in Synergy's best interest to use the power generated by the coal-fired plants that would otherwise be spinning reserve. In the meanwhile, the wind farm is rotating less (and likely having longer periods between required maintenance). I wonder what the summer periods will show in this scenario?
By the way I asked AEMO if tabular data was available from the wind farms on a daily basis. The reply said ask the wind farm's owner/operators. Since I managed the programming and interface of the Perth commercial gas system usage to the regulator for more than ten years, I know the data should be available. It certainly would be for gas, though likely commercial in confidence if split by retailer.

The item that is not talked about with wind systems is related to my initial paragraph. When is the output of the wind farm curtailed, not by lack of wind, but by management directive.

Just wandering

Fred

 

[Moody]

So an attack on those with a differing view without much to add in terms of constructive discussion...

Hey - "those" (sic) are welcome to put up their "global warming is a myth, 'cos this Ken bloke who is neither a climate scientist or statistician told me so and it suits my adherence to the political right regardless of how moronic their ideas may be" (phwew!) stories if they like. It just has nothing to do with the shenanigans around the use or non-use of wind farms.

But it is a trait of mine to be too subtle for AFF ....

 

[Moody]

Of course it was. But once a brain turns completely green there's no rhyme nor reason.

And when it turns blue the oxygen is depleted and it is as dead as a lump of coal?

 

[Quickstatus]

I'm beginning to be skeptical of that after looking at the Western Australia AEMO wind generation page for a few weeks. I think the issue is that Synergy owns the Albany wind farm.

Why do I have this suspicion? The Denmark wind farm (50km west of the Albany farm) is privately owned and produces maximum power almost non-stop. At the much the same time, the Albany farm is producing well under 50% (or less). ????? My explanation is that as long as the distribution line from Perth is not approaching its capacity limits, it is in Synergy's best interest to use the power generated by the coal-fired plants that would otherwise be spinning reserve. In the meanwhile, the wind farm is rotating less (and likely having longer periods between required maintenance). I wonder what the summer periods will show in this scenario?
By the way I asked AEMO if tabular data was available from the wind farms on a daily basis. The reply said ask the wind farm's owner/operators. Since I managed the programming and interface of the Perth commercial gas system usage to the regulator for more than ten years, I know the data should be available. It certainly would be for gas, though likely commercial in confidence if split by retailer.

The item that is not talked about with wind systems is related to my initial paragraph. When is the output of the wind farm curtailed, not by lack of wind, but by management directive.

Just wandering

Fred

I don't know. Does the Albany generator also own another generator?
Certain areas have almost nonstop wind and so wind is more suited to these areas. But I suspect many are gaming the system.

I think the market is so distorted. Generators withholding supply in search for higher prices. Which is why a battery is being built - not to provide backup but to say to the generators who are seeking the highest peak prices that they may miss out because the battery can take away the peak and their $$$ if only for a few moments. The whole system is geared to intermittence and high prices - the demand side becomes the price taker rather than the other way round. With intermittence and no excess capacity these generators become in effect monopolies and they are excercising that power by withholding capacity. A 1GW coal generator can't be a monopoly because its efficient when its running at a fixed level 24/7.

 

[drron]

Nevertheless, according to the new survey, only 67% of American Meteorological Society members believe humans are responsible for most of our recent warming.
The full breakdown: 67% said climate change was largely or entirely (29%) or mostly (38%) due to human activity. 14% believed that human activity and natural events impacted climate "more or less equally." 12 percent believed climate change was largely or entirely (5%) or mostly (7%) by natural events, while 6% were unsure of the cause, and 1% did not believe climate change was happening

The exception is a question that asks the meteorologists whether they expect the impacts of future global warming to be beneficial or harmful in their local regions during the next 50 years. Importantly, only 50% believe the impacts will be primarily (47%) or exclusively (3%) harmful. 29% believe that "the impacts will be approximately equally mixed between beneficial and harmful," while 2% believe they will be primarily beneficial. 19% said they don't know.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamest...ists-undercuts-climate-alarmism/#3d59fd8a6d9a

Apparently Ken is a popular name for climate scientists.

 

[wandering_fred]

I don't know. Does the Albany generator also own another generator?
Certain areas have almost nonstop wind and so wind is more suited to these areas. But I suspect many are gaming the system.
...

Synergy is the largest generator reported in AEMO in WA. The Albany wind farm is about 22 MW at the end of a 350+km distribution line.

As it turns out wind, at the moment, is the quietest I have seen for the south coast with both Denmark and Albany farms turning rather slowly. But then with the mild weather, the total grid demand is rather low. Maybe I should be outside working...

Just wandering

Fred

 

[drron]

Certainly AEMO publishes the output from individual wind farms everywhere except WA and NT.You would think someone in WA knows those figures.

 

[drron]

OK found an annual output for WA windfarms.I think it is 2013.Boy most really cant be called wind farms.Modern turbines have a rated capacity of 3-6MW each.found it here-
Wind farms in Western Australia: a page of Wind in the Bush
This is the body that should have the figures if it still exists.
Contact IMO
[TABLE="align: right"]

NameInstalled capacity 2013Average annual
generationAverage generationCap. Factor MWGWhMWpercent Albany Wind Farm21.655.7 6.630 Blairfox Karakin Wind Farm5.0 3.80.815 Blairfox Westhills Wind Farm5.0 0.70.48 Bremer Bay Wind Farm0.6 1.40.228 Collgar Wind Farm206.0 627.074.036 Denmark Community Wind Farm1.4 4.40.643 Emu Downs Wind Farm80.0 202.323.930 Grasmere Wind Farm13.8 38.14.533 Greenough River Solar Farm 10.0 21.72.626 Kalbarri Wind Farm1.6 4.20.531 Mt Barker Wind Farm2.4 6.20.730 Mumbida Wind Farm55.0 121.417.632 Walkaway Wind Farm89.1 303.035.840 SummaryTotal installed MWTotal annual GWhAverage
generation MWhAverage
(percent) [TR] 475.117 589 [TD="align: right"]164.1[TD="align: right"]35 [/TD]

[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[Quickstatus]

Very windy in Florida at the moment. I read that renewables power the panhandle state to the extent of 2%. Base load provided by mainly gas and nuclear. The renewables are mostly biomass.

Many homes out of power due to fallen powerlines. But the entire state in a blackout?. Nope.

 

[SFSC]

Have seen some white noise in the media about the possibility of keeping the Liddell coal-fired steam plant generating past 2022. I think most people would prefer to see plant retired before the service life has expended than become aware that it has when a major steam pipe ruptures and waves around like an unrestrained garden hose distributing 16MPa, 538º steam and broken-off pieces of pipe around the turbine hall. A Pleasant Prairie type incident on the feedwater side also becomes more credible into an extended life without extensive and expensive radiography. Who would want to put up the money in this market?

 

[Quickstatus]

I

Have seen some white noise in the media about the possibility of keeping the Liddell coal-fired steam plant generating past 2022. I think most people would prefer to see plant retired before the service life has expended than become aware that it has when a major steam pipe ruptures and waves around like an unrestrained garden hose distributing 16MPa, 538º steam and broken-off pieces of pipe around the turbine hall. A Pleasant Prairie type incident on the feedwater side also becomes more credible into an extended life without extensive and expensive radiography. Who would want to put up the money in this market?

The price just went up, Now that the government has revealed they are desperate.