100,000 points taken in 11 weeks QFF

[straitman]

No, they are not right. It is a shame that you completely ignore the terms and conditions before expressing your opinion.

9.2.2 All points held in a non-active account "will expire at midnight" Sydney time at the end of the 18th consecutive month etc

They have expired these pouts contrary to the terms and conditions. The points were not held in the account at that time. Presumably they expired points that were held in the account. Once that specific time has passed there is no allowance to expire the points. There is one fixed time when points expire. There is no mention of expiring them after that time. Regardless of warnings the pouts should not be expired in the first place.

There is a massive hole in the terms and conditions. That you seem to have ignored.

It is the intention of QFF to expire all of a member's points after 18 months of inactivity. Leaving aside whether this is a reasonable approach, they execute it in a clumsy way due to the dichotomy of "Last Activity" date and the date of last earning activity. For example travelling on an Award ticket paid for by a family member's points will be noted as "Last Activity" but does not reset the 18 month timer. Stupid and misleading, but let's move on.

It is the intention of QFF to negate family transfers as a way of getting around the 18 month inactivity clause. This is consistent with the above approach to Award tickets, so no real complaints there.

What is not the intention of QFF (unless they really are run by corporate lawyers) is to create a points black hole in inactive members' accounts. Unfortunately this is exactly what they have done. So the account is deemed active enough to receive points but not active enough to retain them.


What SHOULD happen is that either the receiving member's account is resurrected and has their date of last activity aligned with the donor, OR the points transfer should simply be disallowed.

I completely agree with both of these posts.

A few simple changes to the rules and making the deletion email a separate type of email would alleviate this and pretty much all the other issues people have with this.

One could be forgiven for thinking that having the points deletion message hidden away as part of a standard monthly email almost looks like a deliberate gotchya.

 

[ermen]

What is not the intention of QFF (unless they really are run by corporate lawyers) is to create a points black hole in inactive members' accounts. Unfortunately this is exactly what they have done. So the account is deemed active enough to receive points but not active enough to retain them.

What SHOULD happen is that either the receiving member's account is resurrected and has their date of last activity aligned with the donor, OR the points transfer should simply be disallowed.

Exactly... By QFs same logic, any new account that had points family transferred in would neccesarily be confiscated as there was no qualifying activity in the prior 18 months...

 

[hcsneb111]

Sometimes Qantas is right, this is one of those cases.

They are definitely not right, they have failed to think of this scenario and it it just not covered in the terms and conditions. Many people have pointed this out already but you keep going with the fact that emails were sent.

 

[hcsneb111]

Oops - that should have been wasn't not was Now corrected.

As a QFF I'm disappointed they haven't seen fit to see beyond the T&C or as medhead has pointed out - realised their T&C are inadequate. There are a few examples here on AFF where points have been reinstated (not for expiry) or rules have been bent for members......might be a case of your post number being low and you don't have a profile where they see rejecting you as damaging.

Best of Luck!

Possibly! My sister and father are quite good customers of Qantas so they have lost 2 valued customers there. I am not a good customer so they probably figured its more cost effective for them to wipe the points as no big loss for them if i don't use Qantas again as i rarely fly anyway. As the old saying goes 1 dissatisfied customer = 10

 

[hcsneb111]

I think 2 issues arise from this:

1. The general "November Qantas Points balance and latest news" email is insufficient to act as a warning of points expiry. That needs to either be a separate email or at the very least be in the subject line of the generic email. Otherwise, those warnings cannot be considered to have been issued.

2. The warning provided on the family transfers page needs to be replicated somewhere in the T&Cs for reference. Without it, the only time of potential points expiry comes 18 months after last activity, as Medhead noted. The T&Cs currently make no provision for expiry of points from family transfers after that time.

These errors are made by Qantas and contribute significantly to the end result for the OP and others in similar circumstances. I'd suggest there is a case to take this further if Qantas continues to refuse to cooperate.

Spot on. You must tick the box that you had read the T & C before doing the transfer but relevant information is not in the T & C.

Qantas has made their decision final.

 

[hcsneb111]

What's the current situation legally re "the postal rule" and emails? Is it the same (legally) as for snail mail - that it is deemed to have been received if there is proof of posting? In any case, the OP openly admits the emails were received.

Many of us decry "the nanny state". I don't need Qantas to be my nanny! It's my responsibility to keep track of my points.

The confusion has all started from my mum being told by a Qantas Rep when she called up to sort out the computer glitch when 200,000 points were transferred instead of 100,000 that the points would be valid for 18 months. I had no reason to check my emails from Qantas until i was ready to cash in some points this year on a trip.

You have to remember this account has been dormant from 1998 - Oct 2013. I ring up to get my Qantas membership number so mum could do the transfer. I start getting bombarded with marketing emails from Qantas (the first 2 emails i read thoroughly) which i am not interested in so why would i keep reading them.

If i had received 1 email with the subject line "YOUR POINTS ARE GOING TO EXPIRE 31/12/13" i would have definitely done something to stop them expiring.

 

[hcsneb111]

Bring this to the small claims tribunal?

What kind of monetary value would apply to points?

 

[hcsneb111]

It is the intention of QFF to expire all of a member's points after 18 months of inactivity. Leaving aside whether this is a reasonable approach, they execute it in a clumsy way due to the dichotomy of "Last Activity" date and the date of last earning activity. For example travelling on an Award ticket paid for by a family member's points will be noted as "Last Activity" but does not reset the 18 month timer. Stupid and misleading, but let's move on.

It is the intention of QFF to negate family transfers as a way of getting around the 18 month inactivity clause. This is consistent with the above approach to Award tickets, so no real complaints there.

What is not the intention of QFF (unless they really are run by corporate lawyers) is to create a points black hole in inactive members' accounts. Unfortunately this is exactly what they have done. So the account is deemed active enough to receive points but not active enough to retain them.


What SHOULD happen is that either the receiving member's account is resurrected and has their date of last activity aligned with the donor, OR the points transfer should simply be disallowed.

I doubt they have ever had this situation before as others have posted.

I agree, the transfer should be disallowed or at least a warning pop up when doing the transfer

 

[JessicaTam]

I suggest that QF reword clause 11.1 (f) of the T&Cs to avoid further confusion, as it is obviously not clear to everyone.

"(f) family transfers do not count as activity on your membership or the membership that you transfer the Points to, for the purpose of preventing Points from expiring."

 

[Princess Fiona]

If i had received 1 email with the subject line "YOUR POINTS ARE GOING TO EXPIRE 31/12/13" i would have definitely done something to stop them expiring.

My latest monthly statement is titled "March Qantas Points balance and latest news".
It comes from Qantas Frequent Flyer.
I take it from the title that it contains information relevant to my account.

Perhaps people would prefer something more American, something less likely to result in litigation over lost points.
For comparison the AAdvantage email regarding points expiry is titled
"You've earned them don't lose them" :?:

 

[Moody]

I suggest that QF reword clause 11.1 (f) of the T&Cs to avoid further confusion, as it is obviously not clear to everyone.

"(f) family transfers do not count as activity on your membership or the membership that you transfer the Points to, for the purpose of preventing Points from expiring."

JT - the family transfer has not prevented Points from expiring ... it has caused points to expire. Can you please show me that clause in the T&C.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

My latest monthly statement is titled "March Qantas Points balance and latest news".
It comes from Qantas Frequent Flyer.
I take it from the title that it contains information relevant to my account.

Perhaps people would prefer something more American, something less likely to result in litigation over lost points.
For comparison the AAdvantage email regarding points expiry is titled
"You've earned them don't lose them" :?:

li think the AA type email is appropriate... or at least a clear line in your account saying 'your miles will expire on xx'

as for the points balance and news... I dun know about anyone else, but most of it is total rubbish. and the list of small print is almost as long as the 'news' itself.

I suppose there are some silver/gold/platinums that really don't (still) know that they can earn points every time they fly? really? you can earn points flying qantas??? c'mon... I don't even bother reading that section anymore.

en you get into the even more ridiculous where they said in the last news letter that there are daily flights to Singapore and bangkok and Kuala Lumpur. a small nite said some of these flights were operated by emirates. but then there was piles of rubbish to explain that flights can be subject to operational conditions, cancellations, delays blah blah blah. I mean... their lawyers have just gone overboard.

for me the only purpose of the monthly newsletters is an easy way to check the account balance to make sure no one has fraudulently used my account. if the balance looms right I generally move on.

 

[JessicaTam]

JT - the family transfer has not prevented Points from expiring ... it has caused points to expire. Can you please show me that clause in the T&C.

You have just quoted my post where I suggested the clause be reworded.

 

[kevrosmith]

The confusion has all started from my mum being told by a Qantas Rep when she called up to sort out the computer glitch when 200,000 points were transferred instead of 100,000 that the points would be valid for 18 months. I had no reason to check my emails from Qantas until i was ready to cash in some points this year on a trip.

You have to remember this account has been dormant from 1998 - Oct 2013. I ring up to get my Qantas membership number so mum could do the transfer. I start getting bombarded with marketing emails from Qantas (the first 2 emails i read thoroughly) which i am not interested in so why would i keep reading them.

If i had received 1 email with the subject line "YOUR POINTS ARE GOING TO EXPIRE 31/12/13" i would have definitely done something to stop them expiring.

I reckon this is a point you should pick up further. If a rep told you something, then I'd be referring back to that. As you say, it put your mind in a particular viewpoint/stance about the points. Qantas will be able to refer back to the phone call.

 

[JohnK]

This is really sad news and would appear to be the wrong decision by Qantas.

What kind of monetary value would apply to points?

Qantas applies ~0.7c/point value on points. I think they are worth at least 1c/point if not more.

I would continue to pursue the matter. I may have missed this somewhere in this thread. Were your mothers' QFF points expiring or was it simply a matter of hard earned QFF points deemed to expire in an inactive account? If the latter then it is an extremely poor decision by Qantas. I can understand that family transfers should not be counted as account activity otherwise people would just transfer QFF points back and forth to extend validity but this is not the case here.

And a warning about points expiry in a general email is not good enough.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

the bottom line here is that qantas does not appear to want to provide the customer with an easy resolution.

it appears qantas is more than happy to screw customers over and take mean advantage of the situation for their own gain.

so what if the customer made a mistake? is an ambiguous contract alone worth it to screw them over?

 

[burmans]

and... any warning message about a transfer to a non-active account could easily be added to the terms and conditions. but QF has declined to do so.

Personally I agree and don't see the relevance of the warning about a transfer if it's not supported by the terms and conditions. The very first clause states

1.1 These Terms and Conditions form the basis of Qantas Frequent Flyer. They

I could put a sign in my front yard saying I will shoot all trespassers but it would have no legal basis as I have no justification for doing so and would (rightly) fail at law. Similarly QF states their T&C's form the basis of the program and the warning is not covered in their T&C's I just cant see how they regard this as relevant. You can't on one hand claim the T&C's form the basis for the program, and then go "except where we decide otherwise".

 

[footy99]

I reckon this is a point you should pick up further. If a rep told you something, then I'd be referring back to that. As you say, it put your mind in a particular viewpoint/stance about the points. Qantas will be able to refer back to the phone call.

That's a good point. If the Qantas rep has already told you they'll be valid for 18 months, they'll be valid for 18 months. If they're not, the error was made by Qantas so it's on them to rectify it.

 

[hcsneb111]

My latest monthly statement is titled "March Qantas Points balance and latest news".
It comes from Qantas Frequent Flyer.
I take it from the title that it contains information relevant to my account.

Perhaps people would prefer something more American, something less likely to result in litigation over lost points.
For comparison the AAdvantage email regarding points expiry is titled
"You've earned them don't lose them" :?:

This difference between the 2 of us is you're an active member where as I am not.

Even if all 14 emails that I received all noted the expiry date on the email I would have had a better chance of noticing this crucial piece of information.

Note: all 14 emails had my membership number & points balance yet only 2 note the expiry date

 

[Thunder Down Under]

You are lucky to have received two emails noting the expiry date. I received nil. Resulting in losing 160,000 points.

TDU