ALL QF's 330's to get lay flat Business seating - Including Domestic

[ajw373]

In terms of numbers, how many regional 330's did CX upgrade?

Funnily enough they have 27 A330's (roughly the same number as Qantas) that were delivered before the new product, though of course not all are in the regional config either. So actually their rollout was slower!

 

[maninblack]

Hopefully next time QF just buys a superior 'off the shelf' product and stop wasting their time and money on an inferior result.

 

[moa999]

Hopefully next time QF just buys a superior 'off the shelf' product and stop wasting their time and money on an inferior result.

Like most airlines - QF has purchased an off shelf product and made minor modifications/customisation in conjunction with the manufacturer.

The Business Suite is the Thompson Aero Vantage XL, and Qantas is the launch customer
http://www.thompsonaero.com/vantage-xl
SAS launched its derivative in Feb-2015
http://thedesignair.net/2015/02/17/sas-proudly-display-brand-new-long-haul-interiors/

The Vantage XL is an evolutionary design of the Vantage seat which is used by a number of airlines

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Exactly.

Personally I love the seat

 

[Mr_Orange]

I think maninblack is making the point that if they had stuck with the seat as it came from the manufacturer, they would have got it to market more quickly and also perhaps not had some of the problems that have been reported on this thread.

It doesn't appear as though anyone is saying it is a bad seat, but perhaps the Marc Newson tinkering hasn't helped.

 

[maninblack]

Like most airlines - QF has purchased an off shelf product and made minor modifications/customisation in conjunction with the manufacturer.

The Business Suite is the Thompson Aero Vantage XL, and Qantas is the launch customer
http://www.thompsonaero.com/vantage-xl
SAS launched its derivative in Feb-2015
http://thedesignair.net/2015/02/17/sas-proudly-display-brand-new-long-haul-interiors/

The Vantage XL is an evolutionary design of the Vantage seat which is used by a number of airlines

They have been promoting it as a Mark Newson design so I didn't know that. Anyway so it's essentially an 'off the shelf' that they spent a lot of time and money getting Newson to trick up, but I would suggest they picked the wrong seat. (And wrong designer... Again!)

 

[serfty]

Does anyone know whether 1A and 1E on the -200s are aligned or staggered?

Staggered ... more aligned on the -300 ...

On the -200 there are no seat pair combinations that allow close communication for a couple.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Funnily enough they have 27 A330's (roughly the same number as Qantas) that were delivered before the new product, though of course not all are in the regional config either. So actually their rollout was slower!

CX has 33 regional aircraft in its fleet including 16 A330s, 12 773s and 5 772s. All of thse now have the new regional business class, although some of the A330s were delivered brand new with the new seats (so didn't have to be retro-fitted). All of this was done in 2 years.

They have another 27 long-haul A330s.

 

[moa999]

And QF will Refurb 28 aircraft in about 21 months (Dec 14-Aug 16 including a number of 1-mth C-checks). Yes more planning time than other launches but they picked a yet to be released design and were the launch customer.

Personally I think it's a great product but any design will have some criticisms

 

[Nizar]

Personally I think it's a great product but any design will have some criticisms

True lol reminds me of when SQ launched their new 388 J seat back in 2007, some complained that at 30 inches width for a J seat (which blew away all the competition at that point in time) that it was too wide !

 

[yohy?!]

True lol reminds me of when SQ launched their new 388 J seat back in 2007, some complained that at 30 inches width for a J seat (which blew away all the competition at that point in time) that it was too wide !

Too wide and too short by half, CX managed to steal all their thunder

 

[ajw373]

CX has 33 regional aircraft in its fleet including 16 A330s, 12 773s and 5 772s. All of thse now have the new regional business class, although some of the A330s were delivered brand new with the new seats (so didn't have to be retro-fitted). All of this was done in 2 years.

They have another 27 long-haul A330s.

So 33 (including 777's) some of which came with new product. So they are took about the same time as Qantas to upgrade a similar number of aircraft, give or take a few. In which case I rest my case, Qantas is no better no worse than CX with their upgrade speed. Just a few years earlier which means it will date a few years earlier too. Thats the thing with seats the moment someone brings something new out everything else is old, but not possible to just constantly upgrade.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thats the thing with seats the moment someone brings something new out everything else is old, but not possible to just constantly upgrade.

CX and Sq seem to be fairly constantly upgrading... but I guess it's not so much a problem in the case of CX/SQ when you already have one full flat product upgrading to a new one. With QF it's either a really old product, or the new.

CX was a little quicker with their long-haul configurations... although it's a bit difficult to work out the exact numbers. The total fleet of some 79 aircraft (A330s/77Ws) was completed in just two years - but that also includes new deliveries. I'm not sure how many of those 79 were brand new aircraft.

 

[ajw373]

CX and Sq seem to be fairly constantly upgrading... but I guess it's not so much a problem in the case of CX/SQ when you already have one full flat product upgrading to a new one. With QF it's either a really old product, or the new.

CX was a little quicker with their long-haul configurations... although it's a bit difficult to work out the exact numbers. The total fleet of some 79 aircraft (A330s/77Ws) was completed in just two years - but that also includes new deliveries. I'm not sure how many of those 79 were brand new aircraft.

SQ, fully flat? I take it you have never been on their A330's or their regional 777's then? In fact think they may still have some aircraft that have sit-up J seats. If not only gone in last year or so. SIN-CGK used to be a lottery for business class seats. Sit-ups, angled flat, old long haul flat, new long haul flat. But hey grass is greener isn't it when your just bagging Qantas for the sake of it.

As for CX and the long haul fleet and speed of install, simple maths really. More aircraft in fleet=more can be taken out of service to be done concurrently without it effecting day to day operations.

 

[Mrmaxwell]

Personally I think it's a great product but any design will have some criticisms

Me too - don't get me wrong - I think the new design in both J and whY is great. Top marks.

I have just had an unlucky streak with QFi - my last project was in HNL for 6 months, and while the destination was great the old 767 I had to fly there was not. Of course the month that QF upgraded to the 330 my project ended. Now here I am with regular trips to MNL and why I now fly the 330 the ten year old interiors are old, tired and uncomfortable, and it looks like MNL will be last to get upgraded.

I cannot see how CX will have a worse interior, less edible food or more grumpy cabin crew than I've had on QF during my last flew flights - fingers crossed. I might even do a mini TR

 

[maninblack]

Indeed SQ is all over the shop. And the much publicised wide J seat, a neck ache every time. Good from far, far from good.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

SQ, fully flat? I take it you have never been on their A330's or their regional 777's then? In fact think they may still have some aircraft that have sit-up J seats. If not only gone in last year or so. SIN-CGK used to be a lottery for business class seats. Sit-ups, angled flat, old long haul flat, new long haul flat. But hey grass is greener isn't it when your just bagging Qantas for the sake of it.

As for CX and the long haul fleet and speed of install, simple maths really. More aircraft in fleet=more can be taken out of service to be done concurrently without it effecting day to day operations.

QF's Mk1 is 10 years out of date and won't be finally removed for another year or so. Other airlines have had complete refits in that time... CX introduced not only full-flat Mk1, but Mk2 as well. It's not Qantas bashing for the sake of it... it's fact. With a choice of full flat or angled for overnight to Hong Kong, it's hard to choose and angled offering.

My reference to SQ's fully flat was that you can choose your plane. No need to select the 777 regional or A330 when there are other flights that offer full flat (and with little chance of substitution).

 

[ajw373]

My reference to SQ's fully flat was that you can choose your plane. No need to select the 777 regional or A330 when there are other flights that offer full flat (and with little chance of substitution).

Out of Australia maybe and even then only out of Sydney or Melbourne. In the rest of the SQ network not so easy. Again take SIN-CGK, it is a lottery even now.

And oh SQ's regional seat reminds me a bit of QF's Skybed MKI. Only main difference is the IFE system. Other than that angled, 2x2 etc. So is that product also 10 years out of date?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So is that product also 10 years out of date?

Yes. For long regional flights it is a substandard business class hard-product (although it is quite different to the QF MK1, or at least it seems much more horizontal).

SIN-CGK seems fairly standardised these days in terms of seating - either 773s or 772s - all with angled lie flats in business (F on the 773s only). But for an hour and a half it's not quite the same as 9 hours SYD-HKG/BKK/PVG on QF.

 

[ajw373]

Yes. For long regional flights it is a substandard business class hard-product (although it is quite different to the QF MK1, or at least it seems much more horizontal).

SIN-CGK seems fairly standardised these days in terms of seating - either 773s or 772s - all with angled lie flats in business (F on the 773s only). But for an hour and a half it's not quite the same as 9 hours SYD-HKG/BKK/PVG on QF.

A fly SQ A330's quite a bit, angle is about the same as Skybed MKI, though on the 777's seems flatter but then again more space too so could be perception or maybe they are using the extra space to make it go flatter.

As for SIN-CGK, still a lottery. Yes it is 773 or 772, but could be regional, old long haul, new long haul, what ever they have lying around at the time. Your right for a 1.5 hour flight it isn't an issue, but does show lack of consistency, which again is something Qantas gets hammered for on this very board.

And even away from that route there is still a lottery if you get new long haul or old long haul on the 777-300's. Only one or two routes have it 'guarantee', but again like Qantas that guarantee can be broken due to operational decisions.

CX not much different either, especially during their fleet upgrades, which is what you expect. But again Qantas gets hammered, not rolling out quick enough, flight lottery. Frankly cannot see how they can do it any quicker. They are upgrading two at a time, one gets done another goes in. Yeah they could pull more aircraft out of service, but then would have to cancel flights and people would whinge.