Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

These days recruits are being promoted to F/O in some bases from day one, and in all bases within about 12 months. You’re only going to be in an S/O role for a long period of time if you choose to be.

I'd be very surprised if that is on widebody.

 

[AviatorInsight]

I'd be very surprised if that is on widebody.

They definitely wouldn’t allow that. It’s on the 737. A mate of mine just got to A330 FO after 7yrs in the back seat.

 

[Rabs97]

I'd be very surprised if that is on widebody.

You know there’s more than just widebodies in the airline now?

Point being a promotional opportunity is available to pilots to be an F/O in mainline very soon after commencement.

 

[Rabs97]

They definitely wouldn’t allow that. It’s on the 737. A mate of mine just got to A330 FO after 7yrs in the back seat.

Actually the requirements to be promoted from S/O to F/O on a widebody are not dissimilar to being promoted to 737 F/O (just need an ATPL to be able to relieve the Captain whilst on a rest break).

The reason why it took 7 years for your friend to be upgraded to 330 FO was because that was when their seniority allowed them to get a position on that aircraft, because that’s the usual wait to have seniority for that position.

But hypothetically say if the airline underwent rapid expansion and the LH FO slots dropped very junior then as long as the new hires met the ATPL minimums they’d be considered for as a widebody FO (ie they would not have to do a minimum number of years as an SO before being “allowed” to be a wide body FO).

 

[jb747]

You know there’s more than just widebodies in the airline now?

Whilst I’m aware of that, it’s something I try to keep out of my mind as much as possible.

Point being a promotional opportunity is available to pilots to be an F/O in mainline very soon after commencement.

Actually there often has been. But, because of the accordion-like nature of recruitment, retirements, and promotions, all short term opportunities tend to be followed by long periods of stagnation. 7 years to wide body command is the shortest I know of.

Actually the requirements to be promoted from S/O to F/O on a widebody are not dissimilar to being promoted to 737 F/O (just need an ATPL to be able to relieve the Captain whilst on a rest break).

Which isn’t much if you say it fast. But the ATPL comes with its own set of hours requirements, in (1,500 hours, and 500 PIC), with the later potentially causing issues.

But hypothetically say if the airline underwent rapid expansion and the LH FO slots dropped very junior then as long as the new hires met the ATPL minimums they’d be considered for as a widebody FO (ie they would not have to do a minimum number of years as an SO before being “allowed” to be a wide body FO).

I haven’t looked at the company docs in some time, but they did include hours requirements for long haul FOs, which specially mentioned flight time within the airline. Obviously they can change the rules as they wish, but the intent was to preclude low hours people from ever being left in charge whilst the Captain had a break. I suspect that if they were forced in that direction, their use of junior Captains might change.

Beyond that, I’m not sure that “rapid expansion” is something that QF is likely to see again. The 767’s introduction was that last burst of that particular bubble.

 

[Rabs97]

Which isn’t much if you say it fast. But the ATPL comes with its own set of hours requirements, in (1,500 hours, and 500 PIC), with the later potentially causing issues.

Hasn’t been just 500hrs PIC for ATPL for a while. It can also be 70hrs PIC as long as there’s also some ICUS (basically multi crew FO) time as well.

Getting an air transport pilot licence (ATPL)

Information on how to get an air transport pilot licence (ATPL), which lets you pilot or co-pilot any private or commercial operation.

www.casa.gov.au

I haven’t looked at the company docs in some time, but they did include hours requirements for long haul FOs, which specially mentioned flight time within the airline.

It’s changed. There’s some of those requirements for Command but not LH F/O, which is the same as SH F/O + ATPL minimums.

Beyond that, I’m not sure that “rapid expansion” is something that QF is likely to see again. The 767’s introduction was that last burst of that particular bubble.

Commands now down to 8 years. And yes a 737 command is a real command.

I’m also intrigued by this comment, given narrowbodies were integrated into the airline’s fleet 30 years ago:

Whilst I’m aware of that, it’s something I try to keep out of my mind as much as possible.

 

[jb747]

Hasn’t been just 500hrs PIC for ATPL for a while. It can also be 70hrs PIC as long as there’s also some ICUS (basically multi crew FO) time as well.

Yes, 70 PIC, but with 250 ICUS. It would be a very cheeky FO who logged his normal flight time as ICUS.

Commands now down to 8 years. And yes a 737 command is a real command.

Ah...Ok.

I’m also intrigued by this comment, given narrowbodies were integrated into the airline’s fleet 30 years ago:

Whilst I’m aware of that, it’s something I try to keep out of my mind as much as possible.

I guess you had to be there, and I'm assuming that you weren't. The integration was anything but a smooth process, and brought it's own hostilities with it.

 

[Rabs97]

I guess you had to be there, and I'm assuming that you weren't. The integration was anything but a smooth process, and brought it's own hostilities with it.

Looks like well over 90% of current mainline pilots joined ‘94 onwards (post integration).

Yes, integrating seniority lists is a hard task and it’s hard to please everyone but it was ultimately for the best as it’s allowed the vast majority of pilots who were employed since then to take opportunities in both LH and SH for career progression and satisfaction.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

https://www.9news.com.au/national/be...5-b0464d021729

Very sad news...

Gary Criddle

ex QF 767, 747, 380, 737
ex RAAF - CFS, Roulettes, Macchi, CT-4
ex RAN - S-2 Pilot

Ran across Gary on many flights over the years, He was always happy to chat.

 

[jb747]

I'm not quite sure how to write about Gary. He was just about my best friend, if such a thing exists.

He really was the consummate professional. He was a ship driver before his pilots' course, and had a patrol boat command. He duxed his pilots' course, and was somewhat peeved not to be posted to the A-4. Vagaries of the postings, but he would have done well there. But he went to the Tracker world, where his crews thought the world of him (had a chat to one of his Taccos this afternoon). We did the RAAF instructors' course together, and he was my boss for my first year at Pt Cook. Then he went back to world of ships, where he was XO on HMAS Jervis Bay. From there he went back to flying as staff at CFS. I'd joined QF by this time, and was trying to talk him into joining me, but he chose the National Safety Council instead. Whilst this ultimately proved to be a bad move, he greatly enjoyed the sort of flying he got there. Eventually he followed me to QF, but by then things had slowed down somewhat, which meant that I got a command years ahead of him. And that meant he was often rostered with me as my FO. And that was always fun. Command came his way on the 767, and he enjoyed that until the aircraft retired. He wasn't senior enough to get a 330/747/380 command, so chose to head to the 380 as an FO. He didn't love the French lady, but I was able to enjoy a trip with him there. Age was starting to catch up, so he made the move to the 737 to both regain his command, and to enable staying beyond 65.

Whilst all of this QF stuff was happening, he was an avid flyer in the GA world, and had a number of businesses there. He was endorsed by CASA in just about everything, and spent a lot of time teaching others how to instruct and test.

In a career as long as mine, not many trips really stand out. It's funny that many that do, involve Gaz.

We often say people will be greatly missed....but in his case it's true.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

@jb747 - great words. Thank you. My thoughts are with Gary’s family and also those like you who knew Gary well.

You wrote many years ago that ‘Aviation is an unforgiving mistress..’

My son is at RAAF Sale on 1FTS Course 143 and into his flight training. He said there are a lot of people stopping by the CFS pictures that included Gary..

 

[Nitw]

Hi crew,

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

 

[flyer89]

A mate flew with him just the other day on the 737 and I knew of him too.

He fell truly into the top bloke category and when we slip the surly bonds isn’t it all we could ever ask to be remembered as?

 

[jb747]

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

You ask a surprisingly difficult question, because there is no 'best route'....just the one that happened to work.

Probably the best is the RAAF. If you can get into the academy (ADFA), and then pilots' course you'll have both a degree, and flying career, and you'll have been paid to do it. It's basically the best training that money can't buy. They are extremely selective, and very willing to cull, so getting to the far side is a huge hurdle. But people do it, just look at the post above yours.

Things you need to be aware of though. Most people who start the journey to becoming a professional pilot do not complete it. Whilst it's easy enough to learn to fly at a basic level, as you push onwards the standards become tighter, and it simply leaves many behind. Whilst this is especially the case with the military, the civil world is similar. Unless someone else is paying the way, the finances are extremely difficult.

My advice has always been to get a degree that will feed you, when the flying turns out to be illusory. I flew with numerous pilots with science or engineering degrees, and to be honest I consider them far more useful than aviation degrees.

My understanding of the Qantas school is that it's quite expensive, and selective. But at the end of it you don't have a guaranteed avenue into QF itself, but rather to the offshoots, such as QLink and perhaps Jetstar. There is no avenue from there to mainline that I know of. So basically it's a way of getting you to pay for training for subsidiary airlines that aren't necessarily all that popular. But, like everything in aviation, this could change.

 

[Rabs97]

Hi crew,

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

Well they couldn’t be better located being in Toowoomba! The QGPA (Wellcamp) isn’t affiliated with a university, it is a branch of FTA (Flight Training Adelaide).

The academy took a bit of time to get running properly but of recent times graduates are mostly being employed by Qlink on Q400s. Some are going to JQ on the A320. Not a bad first gig if you can get in. There’s also been talk of a direct to QF mainline path for the top graduates of each course. It looks as if the vast majority of graduates will be earmarked for the Q400 however.

But it is a competitive process to apply, with many more applications than positions available, and they’d be best looking at a Interview coaching course like this one to prep to give them the best chance of being successful with their application.

Commercial Pilot & Cadet Interview Prepartion

If they’re successful then the course is fast paced and thorough and they’ll be assessed on a variety of factors, technical, academic and behavioural. Most graduates will pass but it isn’t unheard of for one or two from each course to fail to make the grade. But get through and it’s the best path for an airline career in the country for a young person.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Hi crew,

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

My university degree in aviation management didn’t help me at all during Covid. I agree with JB, if they’re going to go to university then go and do something non aviation related.

As far as there being a “better” way, I’m not sure I believe there is a best way to become a pilot.

I was washed out early on in the piece for the ADF (medically) but have since gone on to do the GA -> Regional -> Airline route, and can say it was a great choice for me.

 

[jb747]

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

Something that really has to be emphasised is the cost aspect of this. It is seriously expensive, with no guarantee of an outcome. It's probably a depressing aspect of the whole thing, especially as I doubt that it has been considered by a teenager. Many of the people I flew with who had degrees in non aviation areas had worked in those fields, and used that income to pay for their flying training. Airlines do not pay for your training, though they may have done in the distant past.

 

[kookaburra75]

Hi crew,

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

As the others have said, pick a degree course in another area. There is Aerospace Engineering, which can be studied at UQ and QUT. That would provide something with an aviation flavour but provide opportunities outside of being a pilot, just in case. I know Boeing which is based in Brisbane is always looking for people, as is Airbus Australia and Northrop Grumman. Get in contact with those and other companies like Insitu-Pacific which builds Uncrewed Aerial Vehicles (drones) and see what options they can suggest.

 

[flyer89]

Hi crew,

I'm a high school teacher in QLD. Have a year 10 student interested in becoming a pilot for his career, we live near Toowoomba which has a university degree/qantas flight school. My question is; would the university degree have any benefit for him? Or is there a better way he should look at becoming a pilot?

I agree with what everyone else has been saying. It is always more expensive than you think it’s going to be and always takes longer than you think it will.

I would add also if you are going to do it by yourself and therefore in a less structured way don’t do what I did and not do flying in condensed blocks. For far too long I flew when I could (weather or money permitting) and then would go long periods of time not flying (weather or money not permitting). It’s best to look at the forecast and go “ok weather looks good enough for the next few weeks” and do as much flying as you possibly can in that time period. Otherwise you are at great risk of wandering aimlessly and it costing you much more in the long run.

 

[Rabs97]

As the others have said, pick a degree course in another area

I’ve always heard the “get a degree in something other than aviation as a backup if you lose your flying job” but during Covid this rarely worked as viable plan.

Plenty of pilots had degrees in other areas but couldn’t put them to good use during Covid shutdowns because of a variety of reasons. Generally they had gotten their degrees years ago and had not be educated in the latest up to date information or were competing with recent graduates with more current knowledge and qualifications. As they found out you can’t just take a degree in say law or accounting or IT you did 15-20 years ago and then walk into a law firm, accounting practice or IT business and expect to get a professional job straight up.

Those few pilots I know who were able to put their degrees to use were those had had been “keeping their hand in the game” - they had been working at least part time in that other field non stop since graduating and had kept their skills and knowledge up to date concurrently with their flying career. Not exactly the most stress free lifestyle and not leaving much in the way of free time.