Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

[Flying mermaid]

South Africa is a great example of this, and one I’ve noted Australian media doesn’t mention as it doesn’t suit the agenda.

We hear about the US and Brazil having massive outbreaks because they “didn’t lock down”, however SA had probably the most aggressive and harsh lockdown in the world, and the result was largely the same. Fifth highest total infection rate in a fairly small population of about 60mil.

Yes there are socioeconomic considerations... but I’m quite happy to say that we’ve proven harsh lockdowns are ineffective as it’s just pushing the can down the road. As Australia did. And as I said would happen back in March.

Huge socio economic considerations and given the squatter camps it was impossible to effectively control. My brother lives in Johannesburg and from what he said it wasn’t all that effective in the townships where social distancing is all but impossible.

Very hard to extrapolate from South Africa to Australia. Sweden is a more comparable situation and I am not sure Australians would have tolerated 20,000 deaths here, plus the unknown potential for chronic illness.

 

[jakeseven7]

We do have to learn to live with it, but I think the jury is still out on your second sentence whether the lockdowns themselves actually destroyed economies. There are reports of countries that have not locked down (Sweden) still suffering significant economic downturns

Its impossible to pull apart all the variables with the Sweden case study as you note, primarily because their economy is WELDED into the Scandi bloc, and obviously Europe so if one of them sniffs (no pun) they all catch a cold.... With the surrounding countries locking down, it just sank Sweden with them.

 

[RooFlyer]

I must have missed the memo. When did the DPRT become the PDRT and Dear Leader the First Secretary Gutwein?

First Secretary is the title, Dear Leader is or affectionate name for him - or the one we’ve been told to use, anyway

The other thing was a typo, and I’m watching for the goons to appear at any moment.

 

[drron]

Though Sweden is doing very well in a world sense.In fact Scandinavian countries filled 4 out of the top 6 places in a recent survey of economies response to Covid.Norway was number 1,Denmark 3 Sweden 5 and Finland 6.

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Yes Sweden is worse with it's death rate from Covid but of those 4 countries Sweden was the only one who didn't close their borders.They continued to let in people from the EU and UK.
It has been suggested by a few that Peru has had the strictest lockdown yet it is the worst as regards mortality rate from covid-908.68 per million population.

COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista

COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.

www.statista.com

 

[andye]

Interesting that countries with the least bad economic contractions are the ones that have been most effective at controlling the virus (S Korea China Australia etc)

My feeling is that lockdowns are useful (1) in an out of control situation, to blunt the hospital demand (2) in an escalating situation, to suppress to manageable (or even eradicate for a time)

I'm not sure that (1) helps the economy much but (2) can do if it is successful as many people can then return to their business

 

[Flying mermaid]

I think Australia has done very well. The key now of course is to get borders opened, economy working again while still handling the little outbreaks so they don’t spiral out of control and result in another lockdown. We don’t as yet know whether we can do that or not, but NSW seems to be doing it well. Fingers crossed it continues.

I think some people have accepted that they can live with low levels of spread - I am happy to take on responsibility for my own health and keep a low level of interaction until a vaccine appears. For younger people I think it’s Ok to balance a bit of a risk with a normal life, as long as infections are at a low level and authorities move quickly (and effectively) to manage flare ups.

 

[p--and--t]

Though Sweden is doing very well in a world sense.In fact Scandinavian countries filled 4 out of the top 6 places in a recent survey of economies response to Covid.Norway was number 1,Denmark 3 Sweden 5 and Finland 6.

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Yes Sweden is worse with it's death rate from Covid but of those 4 countries Sweden was the only one who didn't close their borders.They continued to let in people from the EU and UK.
It has been suggested by a few that Peru has had the strictest lockdown yet it is the worst as regards mortality rate from covid-908.68 per million population.

COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista

COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.

www.statista.com

No Idea of the facts and not qualified to judge, but after spending some time there; guessimating that Peru would not be compatible to many of the other countries mentioned due to the unique combination of factors like the state of the health system, general economic factors, the high levels of poverty, the low level of education for many, isolation from facilities for many villagers, rudimentary transport infrastructure, and the altitude making any form of chest infection a serious threat to health.

 

[drron]

No Idea of the facts and not qualified to judge, but after spending some time there; guessimating that Peru would not be compatible to many of the other countries mentioned due to the unique combination of factors like the state of the health system, general economic factors, the high levels of poverty, the low level of education for many, isolation from facilities for many villagers, rudimentary transport infrastructure, and the altitude making any form of chest infection a serious threat to health.

But worse than African countries?
And what about Venezuela.Only reporting 13.5 deaths per million population.About a half of Australia's rate.But they do seem to have a problem with maths.

 

[p--and--t]

But worse than African countries?
And what about Venezuela.Only reporting 13.5 deaths per million population.About a half of Australia's rate.But they do seem to have a problem with maths.

Agree with those comparisons. I was alluding to Peru having little relevance to discussion on Scandinavia

[oh, and agree several countries seem to have a problem with maths some seemingly deliberate, some incompetence, some logistical, etc]

 

[dajop]

I sense lockdowns done early can be effective at quickly controlling the virus, minimising loss of life and economic damage. Too late, and all they do is cause economic damage without the savings in life and health care costs.

The anti-Dan brigade have said he's gone too hard and too authoritarian with his lockdowns. But according to almost all of the rest of Australia, more than zero cases is too many, what was he supposed to do? Allow things to keep bubbling on at 700/day and even increasing to 1000-2000 new cases a day? If so, the Vic border to all other states would remain firmly closed until well into 2021. If the next few weeks can bring the numbers down even more, maybe Vic and NSW can open up by Christmas.

 

[RooFlyer]

The Ballarat arrest apparently was “live-streamed”. I’m still not convinced that it wasn’t a setup. In the same way old fashioned protesters provoke the police to get arrested and get media coverage.

Do you think the lady 'set up' being handcuffed in front of the family? How 'provoking' do you think a pregnant lady in her pajamas in her home is to a couple of uniformed coppers? "Look Lady, take off the bunny slippers or else we'll get tough!" If the social media post is an offence under the current State of Emergency (or whatever they are at in Victoria), sure, deal with the offence; its the way she was arrested that's the issue. Disgusting.

At 1pm the day after, the police don't seem to have issued any denial or debunking . Thats negative evidence, but I'd suspect they'd be onto it if the story isn't true (ie entirely staged).

I've done a bit of a read and look-around and there seems to be no dispute that she was arrested and handcuffed in her home, apparently in front of her kids, and led away. For the alleged offence, that is vast overkill for anyone in this country, let alone a pregnant lady. Yes, that she is pregnant is highly relevant to me; call me old fashioned.

This, people, is why Premier Andrews' request for a whole year of power to continue the State of Emergency needed to be opposed. As I posted before, its not just about the ability to make health directives. I joke here about Tasmania being the DPRP, First Secretary ... etc. In Victoria, Premier Andrews, already earned the nick-name 'Chairman Dan' of the PDRV is deadly serious it seems. If the story turns out to be a hoax, I will recant too, but in the meantime, people should be ashamed that members of their Police force has behaved in this way. And yes, lets recall the supine behaviour of the Premier and the Victorian Police Force in the face of other threatened protests. I think the organisers were charged on summons, weren't they?

 

[dajop]

Do you think the lady 'set up' being handcuffed in front of the family?

Maybe, for effect. Absolutely within the bounds of possibility when it comes to activists.

How 'provoking' do you think a pregnant lady in her pajamas in her home is to a couple of uniformed coppers? "Look Lady, take off the bunny slippers or else we'll get tough!" If the social media post is an offence under the current State of Emergency (or whatever they are at in Victoria), sure, deal with the offence; its the way she was arrested that's the issue. Disgusting.

I didn't mean provoke in the sense of physically provoking when the actual arrest happened. But Activism 101 is arrange for someone who will draw in the most sympathy, to be the martyr to the cause and try whatever you can do to orchestrate the arrest of that person. So don't go looking for a 22 yo male with tattoos, better to find a pregnant woman with 2 kids would be perfect media fodder, and better still ensure she is any bunny slippers at the time. If this was the case, then more fool the police for taking the bait hook line and sinker.

I'm not sure that this was the case here, but is always worth asking the question (especially when it comes to protests), what is the story behind the story, and not take it just at face value, as the face value story may be exactly what someone skilled in media manipulation wants you to see and believe to bring you around to their cause.

 

[p--and--t]

I sense lockdowns done early can be effective at quickly controlling the virus, minimising loss of life and economic damage. Too late, and all they do is cause economic damage without the savings in life and health care costs.

The anti-Dan brigade have said he's gone too hard and too authoritarian with his lockdowns. But according to almost all of the rest of Australia, zero cases is too many, what was he supposed to do? Allow things to keep bubbling on at 700/day and even increasing to 1000-2000 new cases a day? If so, the Vic border to all other states would remain firmly closed until well into 2021. If the next few weeks can bring the numbers down even more, maybe Vic and NSW can open up by Christmas.

Agree.

We are not in the foreseeable future going to have zero cases for extended periods of time anywhere in the country with the current mishmash of controls, restrictions and exemptions and a widely disparate view on a strategy to move forward across the country.

My personal opinion is Victoria is in the position we are currently in is due to detecting the "second wave" outbreak way too late (perhaps because the first outbreak was too successful?) and being ill prepared for the rapid acceleration in cases (aka swamped). Once the virus takes hold as has happened in many countries, it becomes a bit of hold on and ride the wave of misery because it is not easily tamed.

The key deliverable we need from our governments in general is to be alert at all times, very quickly detect and effectively quash any outbreak with an agreed strategy and benchmarks. To a large extent that also relies on a high degree of voluntary compliance and personal responsibility by the general population or the alternative an undesirable move to authoritarianism.

Perhaps we do need to adopt some of the intrusive measures employed elsewhere such as temperature checking before entry, mandatory testing before being allowed to move more than x from your home base.

We are going to need some effective long term new-covid norms. I see no clarity on this from a national viewpoint. Premiers cover the spectrum from pure isolationist with the only plan is we are not going to have covid full stop, through to let the outbreaks roll and we will swap them like flies. Unfortunately the reasonableness of the national cabinet when they were all "in a similar boat" has deteriorated to tribalism and political point scoring.

I'm not sure the Aussie psych is currently in the right place to cope with green tick apps on your phone being required before being allowed to access premises & services but we need a clear identifiable understandable new covid-norm to be able to get on with our lives and restart the economy.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

NSW 12 cases

Of the 12 new cases to 8pm last night:

• Three are locally acquired, including two in a South Western Sydney family and a case in Parkes, with no source identified at this point
• One is linked to a previously reported case in South Eastern Sydney whose source is under investigation
• Three are returned travellers in hotel quarantine
• Five are linked to a known case or cluster, including three that are close contacts of previously reported cases linked to the August CBD cluster. The total linked to this cluster is now 52.

 

[VPS]

Do you think the lady 'set up' being handcuffed in front of the family? How 'provoking' do you think a pregnant lady in her pajamas in her home is to a couple of uniformed coppers? "Look Lady, take off the bunny slippers or else we'll get tough!" If the social media post is an offence under the current State of Emergency (or whatever they are at in Victoria), sure, deal with the offence; its the way she was arrested that's the issue. Disgusting.

At 1pm the day after, the police don't seem to have issued any denial or debunking . Thats negative evidence, but I'd suspect they'd be onto it if the story isn't true (ie entirely staged).

I've done a bit of a read and look-around and there seems to be no dispute that she was arrested and handcuffed in her home, apparently in front of her kids, and led away. For the alleged offence, that is vast overkill for anyone in this country, let alone a pregnant lady. Yes, that she is pregnant is highly relevant to me; call me old fashioned.

This, people, is why Premier Andrews' request for a whole year of power to continue the State of Emergency needed to be opposed. As I posted before, its not just about the ability to make health directives. I joke here about Tasmania being the DPRP, First Secretary ... etc. In Victoria, Premier Andrews, already earned the nick-name 'Chairman Dan' of the PDRV is deadly serious it seems. If the story turns out to be a hoax, I will recant too, but in the meantime, people should be ashamed that members of their Police force has behaved in this way. And yes, lets recall the supine behaviour of the Premier and the Victorian Police Force in the face of other threatened protests. I think the organisers were charged on summons, weren't they?

A Ballarat woman says she was treated well by police who arrested her for allegedly inciting an anti-lockdown protest in regional Victoria.

Ballarat woman speaks after arrest

Follow the latest news headlines from Australia's most trusted source. Read in-depth expert analysis and watch live coverage on ABC News.

www.abc.net.au

 

[p--and--t]

And further information comes to light, and I expect more will as time goes by.

By her own admissions, nobody dragged her out of her house in pyjamas (she was allowed time to change and get herself prepared), no-one took her away in handcuffs (as I suspected the temporary handcuffs were applied while standard procedures were followed to check for weapons etc). no-one treated her with disrespect, no-one mistreated her at the station. She was released and back home immediately formal processes were followed.

The police have advised that 80 people were approached and cautioned. Action is being taken against 3. So there is obviously something different about this person and her actions to the other approx 80 involved.

Whether the person is male or female, pregnant or not, has other kids or not, rich or poor, Caucasian or not is irrelevant to whether an offence occurred and the standard processes followed when an arrest warrant has been issued.

'Sorry for my bimbo moment': Woman arrested live on Facebook thought she 'was being kidnapped'

Zoe Buhler says she didn't realise she was doing anything wrong by starting a Facebook event asking people to protest against lockdown restrictions, and she thought she was being kidnapped when police arrived at her home.

www.abc.net.au

 

[drron]

So if the BLM has another protest in the next few months of these emergency powers the organisers will be arrested prior to the date of the protest?

 

[Happy Trails]

This is purported to be the offending post:



The time and location details have been cropped as I wouldn't want to be arrested for incitement.

 

[p--and--t]

So if the BLM has another protest in the next few months of these emergency powers the organisers will be arrested prior to the date of the protest?

Some already were and fined, as she probably will be.

 

[RAM]

Now for something completely different - "an prevention ounce of prevention worth more than a pound of cure" (Google time?)

On the positive side of the ledger....

Have you noticed how the mortality rate in countries that had appalling figures for their first two to three months have now fallen by up to 1/6th (largest I calculated)?

Yes, I allowed for the time delay with their various 2nd waves.

This positive development does not seem to be getting anywhere near the coverage nor money thrown at it to study exactly what changes in the various country's protocols seem to have led to this improvement.

EG: Something I have mentioned a few times (broken record ) is that dating back to January it was very evident that CV loves peoples' eyes. Several decent studies done which 'strongly suggest' that wearing some type of eye covering (lab glasses, normal glasses or sunglasses) can reduce infection risk by 87%+ (results for medical staff in non-CV facing areas wearing masks but not eye protection).

This was even discussed at early National Cabinet meetings but ruled not to be disclosed as the National stockpile (budget surplus savings measure delaying spending) was way understocked on eye protection & unable to source).

Sourcing is nowhere near such an issue now but it seems fear of being shown up for deliberately 'misleading' is all that is stopping this being recommended.

It is certainly less harmful than any Stage 3 or Stage 4 lockdown, and much more palatable compared with wearing a mask. Yet not mentioned.

Commonsense explanation of how/why it works: CV requires moisture to survive & a pathway (vector) into the body. The damp surface of your eyes ticks both boxes. A pair of glasses (NOT skinny 'fashionable' ones) both provides a physical barrier to direct impact and also creates a slight airflow disruption to boot. Secondary benefit (as those who normally wear glasses know well) it also significantly reduces touching the area around your eyes (risk of cross-contamination from your fingers) massively due to the side arms of the glasses.

350 words later....

So, as we all want to get flying yesterday - if AFFers start passing on this suggestion to all we meet (people already know we're different...) then you can make a real difference. You'd be surprised how many shop assistants actually have teared up when I've made the suggestion!

Go on, give it a go......