[Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26] was 10April

[ComeFlyWithMe]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

No I honestly do not think so. People are still going to find a way to get cheap Any Seat awards and even if they are removed, completely, people are still going to find ways to get status cheaply. That is the nature of a frequent flyer forum.

I think people are missing one key point for Qantas here. They need to be seen to protect top tier status and not everyone should be able to earn Platinum One easily. Or am I missing the point?

This comes back to the age old debate of who is a 'Frequent Flyer'.

Some people think that their 100+ annual Red e deals constitute a frequent flyer - and while we all salute you for sitting in Y that often and agree you deserve the benefits, the fact is that someone taking a handful of paid J trips makes far more profit for the airline. This has been covered in countless SC debate threads in the past.

It is a loyalty programme under another name. It's not just flying, we're loyal to the credit card providers and the other partners too. Why else would they participate?

In addition, QF make truckloads of cash from points earning credit cards, and other products, then those points are redeemed for awards, in this case ASAs. To suggest that these have no revenue for QF is absurd, albeit agreed lower that a cash fare equivalent when booked in classic fare buckets.

Also, the gaining of WP1 would not be easy, considering the limited award availability, but let's be fair, if a person has earned millions of QFF points on cards etc, they have indirectly purchased those points, transferring value into the programme. QF value this, therefore allow certain award tickets to earn SCs. Most who use xASA's don't book them exclusively, they will make QF their carrier of choice when they book cash fares too.

If in fact their modeling suggested that ASAs at classic levels were bleeding QFF dry, then come out and say that, and remove them. Don't just put a PR smokescreen in front of your most loyal and engaged customers who use them. The removal of them, however, would cause a massive gaping hole in their programme once many of us shifted our spend and points earn elsewhere.

This is supported by the fact that QFF is apparently the only profitable part of the business.

Don't overwork the golden goose, or it may take flight.

 

[Steelo]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Well said. I believe that it is the total scope of the package that generates loyalty and encourages pax to increase their flying hours. Removing these is difficult for eh loyal consumer - but what is worse is using spin and arrogance to do it.

 

[JohnK]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

you should get a job in the Qantas PR department....

Good thinking.

This comes back to the age old debate of who is a 'Frequent Flyer'.

Some people think that their 100+ annual Red e deals constitute a frequent flyer - and while we all salute you for sitting in Y that often and agree you deserve the benefits, the fact is that someone taking a handful of paid J trips makes far more profit for the airline. This has been covered in countless SC debate threads in the past.

I do not consider myself a "frequent flyer". Someone like Jobu and Tony Hancock are the real "frequent flyers".

And you are right. Someone taking a handful of "paid" business class flights is what makes the airline profitable. Not someone who earns credit card points paying their ATO bill and then uses 48,000 of those points + ~$65 to earn 400 SCs.

Please do not confuse "paid" business class travel with Any Seat award status running. They are not even close.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

And you are right. Someone taking a handful of "paid" business class is what makes the airline profitable. Not someone who earns credit card points paying their ATO bill and then uses 48,000 of those points to earn 400 SCs

Please do not confuse "paid" business class travel with Any Seat award status running. They are not even close.

I'm not confusing them at all, there are two factors.

If you believe the PR spin, QFF is the only profitable part of the airline. How do you think that is the case? It is by exactly that, people spending to 'buy' points. These have a value, and sure the example you show is a low-value example to QF - so fix that.

I have spent more than triple that amount of points to earn a measly 180 SCs, and will continue to do so as I only redeem for International flights I want to take and haven't done any status runs (not needed).

I don't begrudge those who do though, if they're crafty enough to work out some status run and give up their time and points - it's of no concern to me. If low value status runs are the problem, clamp down on those, don't make blanket changes to a fundamental part of the programme.

Regardless of all of the above, these things foster loyalty. Contrary to some members here, most of us still accrue SCs to QFF beyond status thresholds because there is a whole package of benefits. You cannot isolate a programme like this to the sum of its parts.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

And you are right. Someone taking a handful of "paid" business class flights is what makes the airline profitable. Not someone who earns credit card points paying their ATO bill and then uses 48,000 of those points + ~$65 to earn 400 SCs.

Please do not confuse "paid" business class travel with Any Seat award status running. They are not even close.

a frequent flyer seat is generally only available where the airline doesn't think it can sell it anyway. so the seat would go out empty.

someone is now paying for that seat... through points they have gained by flying, or points they have gained through their credit card provider etc.

the credit card provider has paid probably around 1c per point, and the passenger has to pay the hefty fuel surcharge.

so the otherwise unsold seat is now $480 (48,000 points) plus maybe $300 in fuel surcharges if it's international travel.

extrapolate out the 48k to 60k for a return economy class to Singapore ($600 for the points and $300 fuel) and qf is actually making MORE money than they can by selling the seat direct to a commercial passenger.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

I think people are missing one key point for Qantas here. They need to be seen to protect top tier status and not everyone should be able to earn Platinum One easily. Or am I missing the point?

Even if you were to spend all your days doing status runs, here's what it would look like.

TSV-BNE-DRW & vv = 280SC x 13 runs = Platinum One.

That's 13 times 72,000 points = 936,000 points + 13 nights accomodation

That's just to obtain a status level, of which has ZERO value to you and at virtually ZERO cost to QFF unless it's used on future flying.

If someone is willing to trade 14 days of their life and 1,000,000 QF points (keeping in mind this is one of the cheapest ways to obtain) for something they can't ever use unless they pay QF more money - I would call this massively profitable for Qantas!!!!

Remember it's not a loyalty program - it's a marketing program that is based on subjective value

dfcatch is going to love me agreeing with him on this!


As for reasons why xASA being killed off, my money is on:
- QFF makes less margain off the point value with these type of redemptions, despite having a halo effect on the rest of the group.
- Old school thinkers looking at short term goals rather than long term profitability.
- QFF doing some "research" (aka: talking to 2 people) who think that there are "too many options" for booking flights and decided to scrap it to "make it easier".

 

[Reggie]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Hi All,

I have finally caught up on this thread, as I hadn’t paid too much attention in the past.
For the record;
I am WP, LTG and have a will move past 28000 LTSC in a few weeks with QFF
I am WP with VA, comped then retained, but unlikely to keep it after this year
I have never had an OPUP with QF
I have never used an ASA or a YUPP etc
I have never flown somewhere just for SC’s (status run), but have taken a less direct route in the US, to gain some more SC’s within the DONE4 rules.
I don’t own my own business, and have a low CC spend so have no ability to rake in millions of points being a high spender.
The only thing ever given to me by QF was a bottle of Olive Oil a few ago from the QF feedback mob, of which I no longer receive any requests to participate in.

My thoughts on the thread and associated items.
Firstly to the OP, the way you and others were treated by others members (I use the term loosely) was inappropriate, and many owe you an apology, and many more owe you much thanks.
To the Mod’s and Admin, you do a great job (well, other than when you delete my more borderline posts), as a longer term, but lower posting member than some others, I thank you for your efforts and knowledge.
To Redroo, much of the negativity aimed of you is undue, as you are merely the messenger. I have noticed you have been more active recently than you were in the past, and I think AFF are thankful for that. Even the VA reps on this site, who are generally more active than QF, went to ground when problems arose (the congrats you’re gold email, the website change over etc)
I personally am not upset by the loss of MASA’s, I didn’t use them. I also didn’t use YUPP’s etc to earn status, and obtain high levels of status. Granted QFF, stands for Qantas Frequent Flyer, but when QFF and Status Levels were setup I am sure QF didn’t envisage the ease at which these levels could be earned without actually spending very much actual currency with QF. Hence the program changes to minimum 4 segments on Qantas, minimum SC’s on QF metal to earn WP1 etc. I see the removal of MASA as a further change to the program along the same lines.

As with ATA on both QF and VA, and now ASA’s, it appears that overuse (nee abuse) of these program benefits (loopholes) have resulted in them being “enhanced”. No different to mistake fares being stopped when too many people use them and the company realises the problem.

To those leaving QFF, QF and/or OW with cricket bat, ball and dummy, goodbye and can you please do so quickly and quietly. Lastly to those leaving, thanks for freeing up more room in the lounge for me (and the long awaited OPUP from QF that has never happened) and the other loyal QFFers.

 

[Kangol]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

This comes back to the age old debate of who is a 'Frequent Flyer'.

Could be why they are now calling QFF points "Qantas points" and decoupling the "flying" from "QFF".

There's probably a substantial part of the QFF program now that is not in any way related to flying so they have to modify their brand accordingly.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is now a sizable proportion of members who earn and burn points from and on anything but flying.

 

[whatmeworry]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Could be why they are now calling QFF points "Qantas points" and decoupling the "flying" from "QFF".

There's probably a substantial part of the QFF program now that is not in any way related to flying so they have to modify their brand accordingly.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is now a sizable proportion of members who earn and burn points from and on anything but flying.

So the QFF program is the new Flybuys?

 

[QF WP]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Wow, it has taken me Friday night, Saturday night and this afternoon to finally read all of the posts after the announcement, to ensure that I was up-to-date with the direction of the thread. Given my occupation, end of financial year is my busiest part of the year and I haven't been able to devote much time to AFF in late June.

I was advised by admin (via SMS at 1.10pm on 25/6) of a potential PM coming from Red Roo about a Webinar at 4pm, about changes to QF booking engine. As I was in the middle of some critical pre 30 June work with clients, I didn't open AFF until I had completed that work (about 3.40pm) and then read the PM from Red Roo. The content of the Webinar has been outlined by the other Mods here and to my understanding (as outlined by NM), there were at least two other people from other websites (both mentioned previously) on the call. We were advised both verbally and in writing (as part of the Webinar presentation) that there was an embargo until 6am on 26th.

I have received benefits from QF from being an AFF Mod, as I was one of the two fortunate Mods to win a seat on the media trip to Dubai. However, QF must smart over the fact that I am only QF Gold (maintained in the last 3 years predominately from JASA domestic bookings), whereas I am Plat with VA (half paid flights, half award). In hindsight, had I stayed completely with QF, I'd be very close to Lifetime Gold by now and would have retained Plat over the past 2 years based on those paid VA flights had they been flown on QF.

Having kept up with this thread since inception, I was concerned about the continuing advice from various members - in particular post #560 from 747800intercon. It seems they have impeccable contacts.

In the interest of full disclosure, I had been looking to return to PER to see clients following my trip a month ago (where I utilised both a VA J Award and a QF JASA return). I had not made the current booking given my concentration on the more critically timed work for some of my other clients - and often mine are booked within a week of travel thus missing the MASA's.

I booked my JASA (BNE/MEL/PER) for 52,619 points + $410.38 just after midnight on 25th (so it shows 26th), using all remaining points in my QF account (after spending half an hour sweeping family member account balances to lessen the cost).

26 JUN 13 QANTAS & JETSTAR ANY SEAT AWARD 1 ADT REF xx_xx--- -52,619-
25 JUN 13 FAMILY POINTS RECEIVED FROM xx_xx WILSON/C--- 11,985 0
25 JUN 13 FAMILY POINTS RECEIVED FROM xx_xx WILSON/J--- 5,843 0

Thus my account now shows:

Membership Number: xx_xx
Membership Type:Gold
Total Points:0
Last Activity:Jun 2013

I'm not sure this qualifies as a "marginal" JASA as there weren't any to be found on the date and times I needed to travel, whether direct or connect. Certainly none that Expert Flyer brought up.

 

[Nizar]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

There's probably a substantial part of the QFF program now that is not in any way related to flying so they have to modify their brand accordingly.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is now a sizable proportion of members who earn and burn points from and on anything but flying.

Earn surely but not sure about burn.
What else would you burn your points on if not for flying ?
Toasters ? :mrgreen: lol

 

[MEL_Traveller]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

which is all fine reggie... except there are multiple and continuous double status credit promotions running. I get them every year and they run for three months. I never use them, but if QF wanted to clamp down on the ease of status they have an easy way to achieve that.

the first class lounge is now so bad (crowded) that I was told to 'go over to the restaurant and get a menu from there' when I was in the syd lounge last month. and this was as a first class passenger.

 

[SeatBackForward]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

a frequent flyer seat is generally only available where the airline doesn't think it can sell it anyway. so the seat would go out empty.

someone is now paying for that seat... through points they have gained by flying, or points they have gained through their credit card provider etc.

the credit card provider has paid probably around 1c per point, and the passenger has to pay the hefty fuel surcharge.

so the otherwise unsold seat is now $480 (48,000 points) plus maybe $300 in fuel surcharges if it's international travel.

extrapolate out the 48k to 60k for a return economy class to Singapore ($600 for the points and $300 fuel) and qf is actually making MORE money than they can by selling the seat direct to a commercial passenger.

This is the essence of why QFF is so profitable. I guarantee QF would cycle ALL their loadings through QFF points if they could. But then they'd have hard time convincing their investors they are an airline (as if they'd care either way)

 

[will2rob]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Earn surely but not sure about burn.
What else would you burn your points on if not for flying ?
Toasters ? :mrgreen: lol

Look at their current TV promotion featuring the mars rover. It is clear that they are emphasizing non flying reward benefits of the QFF Proggram. The voice over (Jack Thompson ? from the sound of it) indicates that many members never leave the ground i.e. burn points on non flying rewards.

Qantas Frequent Flyer - For every journey - YouTube

 

[Deleted User]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Well at the very least it has the effect for people like me to try out the VA product...

 

[will2rob]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

I was in Parramatta Westfield today where Qantas was running a QFF promotion for a chance to win 100k frequent flyer points by having your picture taken with curiosity (mars rover). Got talking to one of the staff and mentioned my unhappiness with the changes to the booking engine. The staff member stated she was involved in the changes until she got pulled off to take part in the promotion and asked what had raised my ire. Long story short, as soon as I mentioned marginal ASAs she knew exactly what I was talking about and indicated they had considered the effect of the changes on JASAs, but the % of frequent flyers who actually knew about JASAs was small enough to risk pissing them off. She confirmed they have been monitoring and following the reaction here and on other websites quite closely (maybe red roo is a rooette!) so are well aware of the backlash it has caused. She reaffirmed that ASAs will remain so I put to her that the marginal ASAs would be gone in three months. She didn't quite confirm or deny it, and I won't put words in her mouth, but based on her reactions and body language, I will be booking my marginal ASAs this week. She said she would pass on my concerns to management etc.

I am now in almost no doubt, following that conversation, that to quote Tony Abbott, in three months time marginal ASAs will be "dead, buried and cremated"

 

[will2rob]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

which is all fine reggie... except there are multiple and continuous double status credit promotions running. I get them every year and they run for three months.

Wish I was getting them every year. No love for will2rob from Qantas yet :-(

 

[MEL_Traveller]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

Wish I was getting them every year. No love for will2rob from Qantas yet :-(

maybe you need to fly less

 

[nonpop]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

A last minute booking ... need to get to KUL in a hurry ... would usually use QF into SIN or BKK then hop across. But I thought to myself ... stuff it ... so booked MH instead. The margin JASA issue was enough for me to shift some revenue off QF. Now they will never know (may be the crediting to QF is a give-away but I doubt it would even raise a blip).

Even thought we only use JASAs for (usually) 1 return medium haul per year, that 240 SCs just made life easier and it then meant through the year I was loyal to QF especially with domestic (usually red-e 1 way & then flexi return).

So by taking away a 'marginal' (SC) benefit to me, I've shifted a 'marginal' (revenue) benefit away from them. Seems fair in my books.

So for this flyer we tend to find ourselves drifting away to other OW airlines (yet still crediting to QF).

Now don't get me wrong. I'm a QF supporter and have looked to feed revenue into them where possible.

QF ... if you are reading this, if it is so 'marginal' then just reinstate it. Why p*ss off many of your actual flying pax? Do you really have that much over utilization of capital ?

Anways, I'll knock up a quick TR soon.

Edit: TR now posed:
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....d-trip-photos/mh-syd-kul-a330-pics-51818.html

 

[kpc]

re: [Confirmed] QF removing [cheap] ASAs [from web booking engine Jun 26-was]10April

I am now in almost no doubt, following that conversation, that to quote Tony Abbott, in three months time marginal ASAs will be "dead, buried and cremated"

I have no doubt marginal ASAs will be gone in the very near future. .for the record, QF, I'm not impressed at all! !