Domestic Row 4/Row 23 and seating for WP Discussion

[simongr]

Well looks like 23A cancelled or was upgraded... now sat in 23A tomorrow but no indication of an OpUp.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

wilco,

Beg to differ as you may but you are incorrect.

Go and spend some time learning how airfares are managed and you may get a better understanding.

It's called 'Yield Management' if you don't already know :!:

Care to elaborate?

I know exactly how fares are managed and can assure you, Frequent Flyers and their status do not factor in it, one bit. Yield management existed long before FF schemes came about....

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Care to elaborate?

I know exactly how fares are managed and can assure you, Frequent Flyers and their status do not factor in it, one bit. Yield management existed long before FF schemes came about....

Back in my day... we didn't have traffic lights.......we just beeped our horn and went.....

 

[simongr]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Care to elaborate?

I know exactly how fares are managed and can assure you, Frequent Flyers and their status do not factor in it, one bit. Yield management existed long before FF schemes came about....

So how does yield management work without factoring in the whole points upgrade, ODU, OpUps based on status and frequent flyer redemptions including the ability of status pax to request extra award seats? Do they just guess how many seats to sell and hope that the frequent flyer related stuff "just works"?

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I did a quick check, and I've thrown $6k-$8k the past few months to QF for SIN-SYD travel (W or J depending on fares, trip times etc). You need to commute a lot in Y (at $1.5k per rt) to spend that money. You need to commute a lot between SYD and MEL to generate the same revenue as a single F SYD-LHR return pax (let alone profit).

Whilst Y bums-on-seats fills planes and generates revenue, QF depends more on the premium cabins, just like any other full service legacy carrier.
It just makes the point that the top 10% of pax generate about 30% of the revenue. That could be a guy that spends $48k on 4 F SYD-LHR tickets, or a guy that flies SYD-MEL 200 times. Commuters can spend a lot of money, but you need to travel a fair bit in Y to generate the same revenue as J/F fliers, if you're not travelling on flexible Y tickets.

I get the point your trying to make, but the key to this business is "yield" which is effectively the profit generated per seat. Believe it or not, the cost to provide an F seat is not much more than a J seat but the F seat sells for as much as 1.5 times more, meaning the yield is greater. Some heavily discounted fares barely break even, let alone make a profit. So using your example above, whilst the revenue ($48K) might be the same, the cost to provide 200 SYD-MEL flights (seats) is far more than the 4 F SYD-LHR, meaning QF banks more money (profit) from the 4 F seats.

As to how QF decide who is more "valuable" is anyones guess, but its patently clear who is more "profitable" and that at the end of the day is what matters.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Contradictory? I am desperate for those 5 minutes, every minute actually, so I do not sit around outside the terminal for an hour waiting for transport. I have plenty of time once I am stuck in my apartment as I have no social life what so ever.

And there are also times I am desperate for the 5 minutes so I can use the lounge before the train or Cochtrans. Knew I was not going to make the next airtrain last night and spent ~30 minutes in lounge having dinner and a couple of beers.

Time is important to me for various reasons.

Anyway I do not need to justify anything to you. Clear?

What I do not understand is why you are telling me what I should and should not do. Don't "spy" on boarding passes, any old economy seat is fine, I should not rush to get off the aircraft, I should not worry what others get, etc etc.

You're absolutely right, you dont have to explain a single thing to me.... but all im trying to say is that it seems the time you spend researching and planning exceeds the time you save. Not to mention the numerous possibilities that are outside of your control that could make the flight late. But by all means, do whatever you want to do, but I think if you just chilled out a bit, you might enjoy things a bit more.

As for spying on peoples BP's, im sorry, but I find it creepy. The name and status of the passenger next you is none of your business, and if I saw someone doing that to me or someone else, I would most certainly confront them as I think its a major invasion of privacy.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Not really hard to work out when catching a glimpse of a boarding pass. I am sorry but if you do not want people to see boarding pass then keep it out of sight.

Also yesterday's flight was a little unique as the CSM actually personally offered a newspaper to what appeared to be Platinum One or Platinums only in rows 4 and 5. I believe it was 3-4 passengers but could have been a few more. I was offered.


I know the 'shadow' is not guaranteed but sometimes I hope certain seats are blocked from lower status passengers.

ie Platinum in 4A, 4C
Platinum in 5A, 5C
Gold in 6A, 6C
Silver in 7A, 7C
Bronze in 8A, 8C

By the way I am just using these as an example but in theory these can be any seats. Some people think anyone should be able to sit in 4B, 4E I don't. If someone without status is sitting in 24E and wants to move forward then the closest they should be able to get to front using above scenario is 8B or possibly 7B. No further. You have already created a pleasant flight for 24A and 24C by allowing the move so why make it worse for your mosst loyal frequent flyers?

People do not need to agree with me and there is no right or wrong. Perhaps if I was a bronze I would think differently but I am not a Bornze. I am a Platinum and I would like to have some benefits both written and unwritten. Seat preservation, seat blocking, shadows or whatever you want to call it is one of them....

At least you can acknowledge that your opinion could be different, if your circumstances were, as I think there is a huge element of selfishness involved (im not saying this in a bad way, but rather a case of simple human nature which equally applies to me, so please dont be taking it personally)

I think its evident that I disagree with you on this.
QF or any airline would be hard pressed to deny a passenger any vacant seat. A non status passenger who buys and economy seat, has the same "legal" right as anyone else to sit in any economy seat (excluding emergency exits which have specific restrictions prescribed in aviation laws and regulations). To do otherwise, is IMO, legally unwise and I personally would be happy to challenge this discriminatory policy in a court of law if my 4B request was denied.

The only way to guarantee an empty seat next to you is to pay for it. IMO, QF cannot be expected to deny someone an empty seat just to make someone else happy or more comfortable.

 

[JohnK]

johnk, How much was your fare on that flight?

Not as much as your airfare would have been if you were on that flight but probably as much as the person sitting in 25E.

Is the airfare really relevant? Qantas appears to assign a customer value to most travellers anyway and if you do not travel much then you will have a low(er) customer value.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

At least you can acknowledge that your opinion could be different,

Its a shame you don't seem to acknowledge that people are allowed different opinions.

I think its evident that I disagree with you on this..

Yet it is not evident enough for you to LET IT GO! Build a bridge!

 

[JohnK]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Im not against the complainant for having a seat preference or even being a little pissed that he didn't get it, but to spy on someone else and get upset that she got "his" seat when she is a "nobody" is just sad as is the suggestion he has been "wronged" by QF for giving the seat to her over him .

Go back and read the OP. Actually here it is. Just 4 lines and you have not stopped criticising. "Spying"?

Don't worry Simongr. I parked myself in 4F today after being pre-allocated 5B to start with. Big mistake with someone already in 4E. Only about 3-4 Platinums in economy if the CSM offering newspapers was any indication.

All part of the Qantas grand plan to take care of Platinums where possible....

I should never have allocated 4F for myself on a 734 with someone in 4E (not a real issue on 738's) but I do blame Qantas as they thought they were doing me a favour by pre-allocating me 5B.

And now we are going further off-topic.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I know the 'shadow' is not guaranteed but sometimes I hope certain seats are blocked from lower status passengers.

ie Platinum in 4A, 4C
Platinum in 5A, 5C
Gold in 6A, 6C
Silver in 7A, 7C
Bronze in 8A, 8C

By the way I am just using these as an example but in theory these can be any seats. Some people think anyone should be able to sit in 4B, 4E I don't. If someone without status is sitting in 24E and wants to move forward then the closest they should be able to get to front using above scenario is 8B or possibly 7B. No further. You have already created a pleasant flight for 24A and 24C by allowing the move so why make it worse for your mosst loyal frequent flyers?

People do not need to agree with me and there is no right or wrong. Perhaps if I was a bronze I would think differently but I am not a Bornze. I am a Platinum and I would like to have some benefits both written and unwritten. Seat preservation, seat blocking, shadows or whatever you want to call it is one of them....

OK - I will come out and disagree with you.

The non-status passenger is just as entitled to a seat on the plane as you are. And if they want to sit in 4B or 4E, then they should be allowed to. If you want more space, then pay for business class. That's one of the benefits of business class.

Unless and until QANTAS start offering a blocked seat as a benefit, then complaining about having someone next to you, who is perfectly entitled to be there per the rules, is unjustified

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

So how does yield management work without factoring in the whole points upgrade, ODU, OpUps based on status and frequent flyer redemptions including the ability of status pax to request extra award seats? Do they just guess how many seats to sell and hope that the frequent flyer related stuff "just works"?

Those factors are taken into account in a generic way and not specifically related to a persons "status". The yield manager (YM) decides how many points upgrades, ODU, OpUps and redemptions to allow on a given flight, but it is not their decision how they are allocated. Of course it makes sense to allocate them to your most valuable passengers first, but this decision rests with the frontline staff and not the YM.
Availability of points upgrades, ODU, OpUps and redemptions is dynamic meaning it can and does change, including the provision of extra availability for WP's
I have never worked for an airline that allows this but I would think (almost guarantee) that not every request or number of seats requested is granted.

So no, FF's are not factors to YM in the way you suggest.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

OK - I will come out and disagree with you.

The non-status passenger is just as entitled to a seat on the plane as you are. And if they want to sit in 4B or 4E, then they should be allowed to. If you want more space, then pay for business class. That's one of the benefits of business class.

Unless and until QANTAS start offering a blocked seat as a benefit, then complaining about having someone next to you, who is perfectly entitled to be there per the rules, is unjustified

I couldnt agree more and am glad to see that common sense does actually exist.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Its a shame you don't seem to acknowledge that people are allowed different opinions.
Yet it is not evident enough for you to LET IT GO! Build a bridge!

Did I not just do that??

<redacted>

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

OK - I will come out and disagree with you.

The non-status passenger is just as entitled to a seat on the plane as you are.

The qantas website tends to disagree with you. Reserved zones depending on status.

You can select your seat* from reserved zones within your booked cabin according to your Frequent Flyer status. Advance Seat Selection is at all times subject to availability of requested seats

.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Did I not just do that??

Your reply says no.

<redacted>

 

[pauly7]

Did I not just do that??

<redacted>

Wow is this the Virgin forum?!

Don't think we need to get to this level really....

I just find it a bit weird that people here don't know if there are P1, CL or even just higher value WP's around that may have bumped you back.... Gasp... One row! Such small things don't get to me - as long as I'm in the first 4 rows or so I couldn't care less

 

[simongr]

Those factors are taken into account in a generic way and not specifically related to a persons "status". The yield manager (YM) decides how many points upgrades, ODU, OpUps and redemptions to allow on a given flight, but it is not their decision how they are allocated. Of course it makes sense to allocate them to your most valuable passengers first, but this decision rests with the frontline staff and not the YM.
Availability of points upgrades, ODU, OpUps and redemptions is dynamic meaning it can and does change, including the provision of extra availability for WP's
I have never worked for an airline that allows this but I would think (almost guarantee) that not every request or number of seats requested is granted.

So no, FF's are not factors to YM in the way you suggest.

I don't know why I bother. You won't accept that anyone's definitions are acceptable so again I will have to acknowledge you are right and I am again wrong.

 

[TonyHancock]

And then there was a very respectable, well behaved and apparently pregnant lady. She boarded the aircraft, sat in her allocated seat of 4E. She listened/watched the safety demo, didn't annoy those around her and got up after the plane had landed & the seat belt sign had gone off. She disembarked in an orderly fashion, thought no more about the flight and continued to live a happy life

...until she awoke one morning puzzled by what she had seen. "Why were some middle seats empty near the front of the economy section?" she said out loud. "I was sat in a middle seat right at the front, what was wrong with the other middle seats?" As much as she tried she just could not get the question out of her head.

Google proved her friend in the quest for an answer. She entered "qantas domestic row 4" into her favourite search engine and fourth on the list was a link to that very subject. She clicked the link and found AFF. A new world opened up to her, one of upgrades, priority seat selection and the race for status. She gained great knowledge from the ladies and gentlemen of AFF and passed her knowledge on to her son as he grew up.

Many years later her son, all grown up, reached the heady heights of WP. He traveled extensively in Australia, to the extent that it wearied him. He was thankful for the small benefits that his status gave him, it helped to make the tedious, never ending, flights that little bit more comfortable. One day, having selected his preferred seats he was surprised to find himself in anything but his preferred seat....and not only that a non status passenger was seated in a row normally reserved for status pax. He posted of his disappointment on AFF and lo many pages of discussion followed!

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Care to elaborate?

I know exactly how fares are managed and can assure you, Frequent Flyers and their status do not factor in it, one bit. Yield management existed long before FF schemes came about....

Those factors are taken into account in a generic way.

Is it not at all, or in a generic way? :-|