Domestic Row 4/Row 23 and seating for WP Discussion

[JohnK]

What have I started? :-| Even though I actually did not start the thread!

 

[dfcatch]

What have I started? :-| Even though I actually did not start the thread!

Don't worry JohnK....

By the time your Friday Night Delays roll around....... There'll be plenty to keep you occupied reading this thread

 

[JohnK]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

You're so desperate for those 5 minutes, yet you spend an inordinate amount of time researching and planning to make sure YOU get the best seats in economy? Thats about as contradictory a statement as you'll ever read.

Contradictory? I am desperate for those 5 minutes, every minute actually, so I do not sit around outside the terminal for an hour waiting for transport. I have plenty of time once I am stuck in my apartment as I have no social life what so ever.

And there are also times I am desperate for the 5 minutes so I can use the lounge before the train or Cochtrans. Knew I was not going to make the next airtrain last night and spent ~30 minutes in lounge having dinner and a couple of beers.

Time is important to me for various reasons.

Anyway I do not need to justify anything to you. Clear?

All I'm reading here is "me" "me" "me". "i don't want this", "i don't want that". If flying stresses you out, fly private, or is that not an option? surely your WP status must afford you the new qantas private jet service? No? well I'm sorry to hear that. I suppose you could always settle for Business class? whats that?, not an option either? hmmm, well I guess you'll be stuck in coach with everyone else then huh?

And the key here is "Reading".

If you don't like what I post then stop reading it. I am entitled to my opinion and as far as I am aware I am allowed to post my opinion on AFF.

What I do not understand is why you are telling me what I should and should not do. Don't "spy" on boarding passes, any old economy seat is fine, I should not rush to get off the aircraft, I should not worry what others get, etc etc.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Two things, John:

1. how do you know the 4E pax's status (or lack thereof)?

Not really hard to work out when catching a glimpse of a boarding pass. I am sorry but if you do not want people to see boarding pass then keep it out of sight.

Also yesterday's flight was a little unique as the CSM actually personally offered a newspaper to what appeared to be Platinum One or Platinums only in rows 4 and 5. I believe it was 3-4 passengers but could have been a few more. I was offered.

2. if no status, it's quite possible that the pax was preallocated a seat further back, but changed the allocation at check in to move further forward. The WP 'shadow' is far from guaranteed - especially if the seating allocation system was playing up, as you say.

I know the 'shadow' is not guaranteed but sometimes I hope certain seats are blocked from lower status passengers.

ie Platinum in 4A, 4C
Platinum in 5A, 5C
Gold in 6A, 6C
Silver in 7A, 7C
Bronze in 8A, 8C

By the way I am just using these as an example but in theory these can be any seats. Some people think anyone should be able to sit in 4B, 4E I don't. If someone without status is sitting in 24E and wants to move forward then the closest they should be able to get to front using above scenario is 8B or possibly 7B. No further. You have already created a pleasant flight for 24A and 24C by allowing the move so why make it worse for your mosst loyal frequent flyers?

People do not need to agree with me and there is no right or wrong. Perhaps if I was a bronze I would think differently but I am not a Bornze. I am a Platinum and I would like to have some benefits both written and unwritten. Seat preservation, seat blocking, shadows or whatever you want to call it is one of them....

 

[Kangol]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Also yesterday's flight was a little unique as the CSM actually personally offered a newspaper to what appeared to be Platinum One or Platinums only in rows 4 and 5. I believe it was 3-4 passengers but could have been a few more. I was offered.

I've seen this happen a few times this year, except it was for a few more rows than just 4 and 5... he/she had a list and was addressing certain people by title and name. IIRC it was when there was a slight delay prior to taxi/takeoff.


As an aside: for those who have a title other than Mr/Mrs (ie Dr/Prof), do the FAs reading your BP always address you by that title?
I get it randomly and am wondering if it is due to my age or status (or lack thereof - am just QP/PS).
Not that I care about titles or how the FAs address me (just sayin'), if anything I prefer to use my first name... but that's just me

 

[JohnK]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I mean seriously, who has the time, patience and effort to monitor which train carriage they get on to work, which side of the train they sit on, and which few seats they sit in. To me it seems that there are much bigger issues at play......

Me!

In the morning I get to the back end of the platform and get on the last carriage, dragging my feet when I do get out of the carriage.

In the evenings I get to the front end of the platform and get on the first carriage, almost gliding on air when I do get out the carriage.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

there is another side to this argument... there has been research finding that the most dangerous seats in the event of a smoke filled cabin are those towards the back + 6 or more rows away from an exit.

if one looks at some of the 767 interiors you will see there is a whole chunk of seating outside of 6 rows from the nearest exit.

I cannot see any argument for seat blocking, except in rows 42-48 of the aircraft which should perhaps be filled last.... it really is a matter of safety first.

 

[JohnK]

Is it due to a late 767 to 737 substitution? A aisle 'B' seat on the 767 stays a 'B' seat on the 737?

I've been in an exit row 738 (with a BP printed) when it was subbed to a 734 and I lost the exit row.

It was a 767 to start with and I had 26J allocated. I have already learned not to pre-allocate B seats on a 767.

Then it was subbed to a 738 and I somehow managed to change my pre-allocated seat to 6D.

Then when the outbound flight was at T-80 I changed that one to 4D but somehow my pre-allocated of 6D for the return leg went missing as it was subbed again to a 734 and it was simply requested as Aisle preference.

When I went to do OLCI at ~T-18 hours I noticed that I was pre-allocated 5B. Please tell me which warped mind thinks that 5B is the appropriate seat for a Platinum with forward aisle preference. Perhaps Forward takes precedence and aisle is ignored. There were aisle seats scattered around the cabin from row 8-9 back but I took my chances with 4F hoping to improve as I have done on ~90% occasions.

Qantas could look into doing some changes on how seats are re-mapped due to aircraft substitution.

At a guess I would say seating glitches are at the bottom of a bottomless pile.

 

[simongr]

Just checked in 25B. Noticed that every centre seat is open for me to select so no-one has a shadow today...

 

[serfty]

Just checked in 25B. Noticed that every centre seat is open for me to select so no-one has a shadow today...

Are you using KVS/Expertflyer?

You won't see the shadow on Qantas.com seat selection, you may see any that exist on KVS/EF.

Here's and example of a shadow on a lightly loaded business cab for a trans Tasman flight:

View attachment 4863View attachment 4864

WP in 1F ...

 

[medhead]

Just checked in 25B. Noticed that every centre seat is open for me to select so no-one has a shadow today...

I've seen that a few times and between QF seat maps and Expert Flyer I've concluded in such a case that no one has a shadow from a platinum FF. It is highly likely that lower status won't have the same availability of middle seats.

I also feel confident of a shadow when EF shows my middle seat as open, but the QF seat select has it blocked. A case of the other person's shadow working for me.

 

[simongr]

Are you using KVS/Expertflyer?

You won't see the shadow on Qantas.com seat selection, you may see any that exist on KVS/EF.

This was whilst doing OLCI.

I've seen that a few times and between QF seat maps and Expert Flyer I've concluded in such a case that no one has a shadow from a platinum FF. It is highly likely that lower status won't have the same availability of middle seats.

I also feel confident of a shadow when EF shows my middle seat as open, but the QF seat select has it blocked. A case of the other person's shadow working for me.

I agree - my take on this is that the Shadow (when it exists) only blocks the hoipolloi But a WP or CL can blast through the shadow.

I will check on Friday what the seat maps look like as I am traveling back with a SG and PS.

 

[serfty]

This was whilst doing OLCI. ...

You won't see any 'shadow' there either!

If you know of no other PAX on a separate booking on the same flight and having WP status you need to look at E/F or KVS to determine the presence of said shadow (note that these can be a little inconsistent in results).

...
I agree - my take on this is that the Shadow (when it exists) only blocks the hoipolloi But a WP or CL can blast through the shadow. ...

Not in my experience. This was demonstrated when myself and another WP had bookings on the same flight and we could watch the shadow 'follow' us; the other WP would find the 'shadow' seat block when attempting to OLCI/Select seats. We could see this on Qantas.com separately.

You have already posted this thread - but that link the the posts that follow give a good feel for what to look for: http://www.australianfrequentflyer....um-shadow-how-does-work-32195.html#post497632

(FWIW, you can reselect seats after OLCI for domestic travel).

Finally, the shadows are less prevalent on busy flights.

 

[simongr]

I was thinking more that as I couldn't get an aisle seat further forward than row 25 then all of the pax in front of me must be CL or WP (row 23/24 has not been available at point that I checked since T-80). There are empty middle seats in 23 and 24 E that I am able to select so the CL/WP in those seats do not have a shadow as I could sit next to them (I have actually stayed in 25B).

 

[ozbeachbabe]

From what I could see 5E was vacant, 7E was vacant and maybe 8E as well. Further back was a scattering of vacant seats.

Not only could I not get 4CD as these already had Platinums but Qantas saw it fit to allow someone with no status to sit in 4E with Platinums in 4D and 4F while there were vacant seats scattered throughout the cabin.

Perhaps I am asking for way too much for a simple computer program to achieve and Qantas looking after it'sd Platinums so well....

I think the issue here is not so much the computer program not working but a staff member making a conscious decision to override the system to accommodate the request of another passenger, in this case a pregnant woman. I'm just guessing but with peak flights you get a lot of solo travellers who select window or aisle which naturally leaves a lot of middle seats for everyone else.

The lady in question may have even got to the airport 'early' say 2 hours before wanting an aisle seat only to find middles only left. Perhaps she checked at the gate to see if there was anything last minute & the gate agent gave her that seat thus overriding the Altea theoretical seating protocols.

Maybe she wanted a bit more legroom but the exit row was full or didn't want to sit there. Then again at what stage of pregnancy is a woman deemed not suitable to sit in an exit row?

What you think is a good decision for one passenger may have a downside for another. In short yes the pregnant lady may fly QF again because she had a good travel experience but does this mean that because the pax in 4D & 4F didn't get a spare seat 4E when rows behind them did, that they will fly DJ next time?

I am being realistic. There have been been a number of times where I have tried to get 4CD and even 23BDFJ on a 767 only to find a person with no status sitting there. Not even a member of the QFF program. You know how that makes me feel as a Platinum?
of them?

Another thing that overrides the theoretical seating is if people are moved on to earlier/later flights using the 'force transfer' function as that overrides seating protocols. In the situation where you have a 'flow forward' on a flight this function would be used a lot & it generally allocates the most forward seat available whether window, aisle or middle.

There are generally time constraints during busing periods so I don't think the person who 'force transfers' a pax will nil status onto another flight & sees them in a forward seat is going to say "oh that's way too forward for you, what have we got available down the back, how does 57E sound"?

Many people have stated here previously I think any spare shadow seats should be given to those on full fare who might normally travel business class but were unable to because that cabin was sold out.

All sounds good in theory however different fare types often use the same sub-class fare bucket eg full economy "Y" is also used for some contact fares that get a certain percentage discount off the published full economy level so the computer program would some how need to interrogate the eticket to determine the actual fare paid.

I don't know how the system would know who intended to fly Business originally as not everbody would bother waitlisting "J" on the flight they would just settle for an economy fare. There are of course some pax who would have a "J" waitlist & actually be ticketed for "J" in the event of a noshow up the front.

Being ticketed in economy with a waitlist for "J" is pointless as when the flight is finalised at minus 15 it's too late to pay the adcoll from whY to J for the ticket. I think now in this scenario at checkin if holding & Y ticket with but a J waitlist the system will cancel the J waitlist before it checks you in to your confirmed seat in whY.

His complaint is not the woman seated next to him in 4E "stole" his seat as this is a middle seat which he had not chosen and would not typically prefer to choose.

His complaint is that on a lightly loaded aircraft (as this flight appeared to be) QF would typically spread the passenger load around the cabin to increase passenger comfort rather than load up full rows of seats.

It is known that (rightly or wrongly) QF typically retain row 4 for higher status pax, so it was a bit surprising that QF would allocate the middle seat in row 4 to a person with no QF status on a lightly laden flight.

I think that's the point he was trying to make.

I may be wrong but I don't think it was a question of the flight not being full. I think there were a handful of empty middle seats scattered around the first few rows of economy but more a question of "why was 4E allocated when 7E was empty". I have explained this above in the first para when I addressed JohnK.

You also can't earn CL status from flying either....

Although QF do differentiate CLQF from CLPO so if you are a CL member who does 3600SC a year (2700 of QF) you are classified as a CL P1 Member.

I've given up on exit row seats due to my last trip. It was a Sydney/Brisbane return trip, and 3 weeks out (when booked) I saw that I could pick an aisle exit row seat on both legs, but the forward aisle seats we unavailable (I am Au). I'll grab those now and then recheck at T-80 to see if I can move up to the front, I thought. Only I didn't and so when it came to OLCI the forward cabins were chockers both ways and so I left myself in the exit rows.

Of course this meant I had to queue up (briefly) at the QC to get my boarding pass and agree that I was up to the task. Then I get on the 737 on the first leg to find that I am sitting behind the 2 exit rows, presumably due to an aircraft substitution. That didn't bother me too much, but when waiting for all the disorganised pax in rows 1-12 to get their bags and get off the plane I started grinding my teeth.

Then on the return journey the next day it happened again! I was on a 767 this time in row 35 or something, and again this was behind the real exit row. I was in the middle section which is off-set to the seats near the fuselage which are truly exit row, so Qantas needs to update its cabin diagrams.

Since I hadn't paid for the seats I have no particular redress to Qantas, but I won't be bothering with that tosh again!

The issue here is that on some of the VH-OG* B767's there is no 34DEF so 35DEF is a true exit row. However, some of the other VH-OG* a/c there is row 34DEF so 35DEF is just another row. It is still designated as an exit row though because 35AB & 35JK are still exit rows & I don't think you can designate one row as being a partial exit row - it's got to be all or nothing.

You may not have had the chance to see the seat map on the subbed a/c as you'd already checked in, however if there is a 34DEF on that a/c don't bother sitting in 35DEF.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

All sounds good in theory however different fare types often use the same sub-class fare bucket eg full economy "Y" is also used for some contact fares that get a certain percentage discount off the published full economy level so the computer program would some how need to interrogate the eticket to determine the actual fare paid.

I don't know how the system would know who intended to fly Business originally as not everbody would bother waitlisting "J" on the flight they would just settle for an economy fare. There are of course some pax who would have a "J" waitlist & actually be ticketed for "J" in the event of a noshow up the front.

Being ticketed in economy with a waitlist for "J" is pointless as when the flight is finalised at minus 15 it's too late to pay the adcoll from whY to J for the ticket. I think now in this scenario at checkin if holding & Y ticket with but a J waitlist the system will cancel the J waitlist before it checks you in to your confirmed seat in whY.

I agree completely... I wasn't thinking of it being so much computer generated, but manually. lounge staff know many frequent flyers, or it might be that a business class passenger wants to transfer to an earlier flight (without business class). in those cases the lounge staff may wish to block a seat beside their CIP or VIP passenger.

I have had this done on other flights overseas where an equipment change has seen the unavailability of a first class cabin. those of us in first were reaccommodated in business with a seat block (or so they told us). the rest of the cabin was full.

in that case class of service downgrades got the spare seats rather than status.

 

[dfcatch]

ozbeachbabe thank you for your usual informative post that really does help to show the various things that can change what the "system" would normally endeavor to provide

 

[Moody]

Oh .... and my take on preferential seating is this. It nearly always seems to work as designed, but sometimes it doesn't. If you are paranoid that Qantas is victimising you then it is probably true and complaining on AFF is why it is happening.


But I stand by my comments that exit row seating is hit and miss and only worth the bother if you have a pressing reason to need it. I don't.

 

[nlagalle]

Well I was on a 737-800 and could only get 4B near the front.. I was the Platinum between two CL's! judging by the group that arrived quite late in the boarding I am guessing most of Row 4 and 5 were CL's!

 

[RB]

And then there was a very respectable, well behaved and apparently pregnant lady. She boarded the aircraft, sat in her allocated seat of 4E. She listened/watched the safety demo, didn't annoy those around her and got up after the plane had landed & the seat belt sign had gone off. She disembarked in an orderly fashion, thought no more about the flight and continued to live a happy life